Difference between revisions of "Talk:Location Quick Reference"

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==Editing Notes==
 
==Editing Notes==
Some general guidelines to follow when adding additional information to any of the locations:
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===General Guidelines===
* Must be brief, without losing meaning.
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----
* Each section should be self contained. The only link players need to follow is contained within the section and do not lead to other sections.
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:* Write-ups must be brief, without losing the meaning. For example, in the [[Bazaar]], players are not just advised to visit the [[Cartographer]], but also informed of the reasons why.
* It is ok to repeat what is mentioned in another section as long as it makes sense for the section in question.
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:* Each location section should be self contained. With the exception of the Prerequisites and Next Recommended Destination subsections, the only link players need to follow is contained within the section and do not lead to other sections.
* Do not include any time limited traps/mice in the write-up. They are not readily available and would very likely end up confusing newer players.
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:* It is acceptable to repeat what was previously mentioned in another section as long as it makes sense for the section in question.
* Do not include SUPER|brie+ as recommended cheese, although it can be suggested for a particular mouse catch, like Cook or Worker.
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:* If a cheese/trap combination is specific to catch 1 to 3 breeds of mice out of the many others in a location, it should not be put under recommended traps or recommended cheese, but should instead be included in the recommended to-do list. An example would be catching Monsters in the Laboratory. Catching Monsters there require the specific use of Radioactive Blue, along with a good physical trap. But using Radioactive Blue results in poor or negative gold returns in the Laboratory, so not exactly a good choice unless the player is aiming for a heavy Monster. Hence RB is not recorded as recommended cheese, but can be included as the writeup under the To-Do list as "Catch a Monster Mouse using Radioactive Blue."
* For crafted items, do not list down individual ingredients or additional notes. List only the final product. Further details should be easily available in the respective articles.
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:* Do not include SUPER|brie+ as recommended cheese, although it can be suggested for a particular mouse catch, like Cook or Worker.
-- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 16:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
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:* Editors should note that these set of guidelines are just that. They are not concrete rules. Do exercise logic and common sense if something seems out of place, or if there are certain missing links that need to be added in.
  
Some additional guidelines with the introduction of many more locations and branches in the paths that players can take:
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===Sectioning===
* New locations should first be placed within the respective rank sections, and then in alphabetical order of location.
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----
* If a cheese/trap combination is specific to catch 1 to 3 breeds of mice out of the many others in a location, it should not be put under recommended traps or recommended cheese, but should instead be included in the recommended to-do list. An example would be catching Monsters in the Laboratory. Catching Monsters there require the specific use of Radioactive Blue, along with a good physical trap. But using Radioactive Blue results in poor or negative gold returns in the Laboratory, so not exactly a good choice unless the player is aiming for a heavy Monster. Hence RB is not recorded as recommended cheese, but can be included as the writeup under the To-Do list as "Catch a Monster Mouse using Radioactive Blue."
 
-- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 16:39, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 
  
<!-- Please do not edit anything above this line, except to add additional guidelines -->
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====Newcomers Section====
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:* Section is reserved for locations accessible to minimum ranks from Novice to Journeyman. This is to ensure that players new to the game have less text to read through and to prevent information overload.
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:* New locations should first be placed within the respective rank sections, and then in alphabetical order of location.
  
==Whisker Woods==
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====Experienced Hunters Section====
Seeing as it is a very new area (and I haven't been there yet) I have no idea how difficult it is. Should it go under the "for new players" or the "for experienced players" section? It is a journeyman location. As soon as I get there, I will attempt to evaluate it and check back here.--[[User:Rvanarsdale|Rvanarsdale]] 03:01, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
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:* Section covers the locations that can be accessed by all other ranks from Master and beyond. Mainly used to hold the remaining locations. It must not be split into further sections unless there is an absolute need to. For example, splitting further into Master-Grandmaster and Legendary & above for cosmetic purposes is not acceptable, unless game design happens to make a clear distinction in future.
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:* New locations should first be placed within the respective rank sections, and then in alphabetical order of location.
  
:Well, Mountain is another Journeyman location and it's in the newbie section, so I would put it there just on that basis. But I still have no map... -- [[User:Camomiletea|Camomiletea]] 03:16, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
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===Subsection guidelines===
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----
  
::It is probably going to be a mixture of both newbie and veteran areas, since the design style so far has been 1 region, 4 locations. We will have to wait and see to be sure of course. As a tentative guideline, locations that can be accessed by Masters and above will be classed as for experienced players. Afterall, they ''are'' Masters :) -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 11:24, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
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====Prerequisites====
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:* Prerequisites for experienced hunters should not include the rank requirement, as that is already covered in the general section heading.
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:* In the event where one Map or Key grants access to multiple locations, that location where it is found/crafted/purchased should be listed, as well as any previous location that should not be skipped. For example, in the Pinnacle Chamber, it is written as "Visited Meditation Room and previously purchased Furoma Map Stitch from Bazaar", thus covering both the travel requirements, as well as the need to have collected a sufficient amount of shards, which is itself mentioned within the '''Things you must do''' section within Meditation Room.
  
::Okay. My opinion is that we put it in as a noob section for now and modify as it goes - any last words before we do?--[[User:Rvanarsdale|Rvanarsdale]] 12:41, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
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====Recommended Ranks====
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:* Recommended Ranks is exclusive to the Newcomers section, and is meant to guide players to avoid spending too much time in a location. It should not be added to the Experienced Hunters section as the game has many branches at this point in time and players are expected to decide which location to move to themselves based on their current progress.
  
About the "Recommended trap for the CC. Once the Venus Mouse Trap is released, will that become the new recommended trap? Or will it be recommended (or minimum) for the soon to be released new area (assumption that there is a new area, of course)? --[[User:Shinnok|Shinnok]] 07:20, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
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====Recommended Cheese====
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:* Recommended Cheese mentions the most useful cheese(s) for the location that is available to the majority of players. Thus SUPER|brie+ is not mentioned here as it is almost always the best choice in place of Brie or Gouda, but is restricted mostly only to donors.
  
:I wouldn't worry about that at the moment. We don't know how the locations and traps will play out exactly :) If for example, the trap is not sold in Calm Clearing, and there is little reason for players to return here, then it would not make sense to recommend it, just like why we don't recommend the Mouse DeathBot to players in the Town of Gnawnia etc. So we'll cross the bridge when it comes. -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 07:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
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====Minimum and Recommended Traps====
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:* Minimum Traps does not refer to the bare minimum trap possible, ie [[Tacky Glue Trap]] in the [[Harbour]]. Rather, it would be a trap(s) that has players seeing red boxes or stolen cheese often in a particular location, and yet still make a ''reasonable'' gold and points profit. Therefore an important point to note is that just being able to catch some mice in a location using a particular trap does not qualify it as a Minimum Trap.
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:* Recommended Traps contains the next better trap(s) that helps improve catch rates. However, there is usually an element whereby players might (and probably will) hold back from buying the trap due to the amount of usage the better trap will see in the current and further locations, or that players will only be able to afford the trap at the tail end of their visit to a location. Therefore for most players, the Recommended Trap is typically out of reach on their initial visit to a location unless they came fully prepared from prior locations.
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:* Both Minimum and Recommended Traps do not have very precise guidelines. This becomes especially obvious for newly introduced locations, thus care should be taken before including a particular trap in either of the subsections. It should at the very least be backed by experience from a reasonable number of personal hunts (for example, at least 300 to 500 trap checks in a location), or ideally with data from a large sample of players, or by inference when only a single trap [[Power Type]] works well against the mice in a location.
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:* When unsure of what could be fall under the Minimum Trap, editors can look at the list of possible Recommended Traps instead, and work backwards by considering traps that are somewhat weaker.
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:* Minimum and Recommended Traps include both the [[Weapon]] and [[Base]] for Newcomers, but only mention Weapons for Experienced Hunters. This is to ensure that Newcomers acquire at least the basic Bases for use further down the line.
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:* Do not include any time limited traps in the write-up. They are not readily available and would very likely end up confusing newer players.
  
::Woah. It's been pretty chaotic here while I was asleep. On topic, I agree with Grexx. Moreover, I think that when the bunch of new Tactical mice are released, they probably wouldn't be in the Calm Clearing. The devs are probably setting up a new location similar to the Training Grounds or Dojo where Tactical mice can be found most, hence the new Venus Mouse Trap. For now, I think that the Calm Clearing has a lot of mice varieties already and wouldn't be that suitable for any more mice to be added. Again, this is purely speculation. --[[User:Mikeyco|Mikeyco]] 07:37, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
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====Things you must do / Recommended To-do List ====
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:* These two subsections typically covers the mice that players have to (or should) catch and the loot drops they need to acquire from these mice, such as a [[Maps and Keys|Map or Key]] or [[Crafting]] ingredients etc. The main difference being that the former is firm on what needs to be done, without which players will be unable to progress in the game, while the latter mainly advises players, and this advice can be safely ignored at this point in time.
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:* Do not include any time limited mice in the write-up. They are not readily available and would very likely end up confusing newer players.
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:* For crafted items, do not list down individual ingredients or additional notes. List only the final product. Further details should be easily available in the respective articles.
  
==Recommended Cheese==
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====Next Recommended Destination====
Isn't "recommended cheese" a bit limiting? How about two or more categories... there are several locations where there are at least 3 cheese types that will give acceptable results but there are very significant differences between their performance... I appreciate we don't want a lot of complexity on what is supposed to be a quick reference chart, but how about something like Good, Better and Best cheese? -- [[User:Winelight|Winelight]] 21:59, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
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:* Recommended Destinations should either be of the same or higher rank requirement compared to the current location. Players should not be sent back towards a lower ranked location unless it is part of game design, such as from the [[Jungle of Dread]] to the [[Acolyte Realm]]. Otherwise, for example at the Pinnacle Chamber, players are sent towards the Catacombs or S.S. Huntington II, rather than to lower ranked locations.
  
:I think that's going to be rather subjective... On which basis do we decide the best cheese (e.g. cost-effectiveness, attraction rate, encounter rate of certain mice, etc.)? We should let the players figure out what cheese is the best for them. -- [[User:Camomiletea|Camomiletea]] 22:09, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
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Please do not make any major changes directly to the guidelines. They should first be discussed below. -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 20:02, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
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<!-- Please do not edit anything above this line, except to add additional guidelines -->
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===Discussions===
  
::It would be difficult as Camomiletea mentioned, since for a location like the Dojo, whether Maki is "better" than standard cheese is somewhat questionable. And SUPER|brie+ is always better in most places, but due to it's high market value, is it really better in the end? (ie using SB+ in any of the locations in Gnawnia means losing 700-800 gold a hunt at a market rate of 1000 gold per SB+)
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I would like to add a link on the word "Recommend Traps" to link to the various Trap Setup Option Pages. This would provide easy navigation to hunters for a list of options. Any concerns? -- [[User:Ralphminer|Ralphminer]] 03:06, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
  
::The only location I can think of where this could possibly work is in Bristle Woods, but even then there's difficulty in deciding which exactly is the better cheese. For example in Catacombs, you can use either Radioactive Blue or Ancient. For a new player who has slowly worked their way here, Ancient would be a more attractive choice since they should have tons of Stale Cheese by now. For others, it might be more cost effective to farm for RB potions and Stale Cheese at the same time in the Lab, so RB is the better cheese for them.
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:Don't think it would be a good idea as the links can already be found through the location articles. Most importantly, the recommended traps and trap options are not completely in sync, so it would put that difference in the spotlight. Would like to avoid this since questions about consistency would crop up about the bases and cheese. I would rather it be put up under a brief writeup in the introduction on how to navigate the quick reference itself and further links that can be looked at. It is on my list of things to do currently, but won't be getting to it so soon. -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 06:20, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
  
::One way around this is to write an article by itself discussing the complexities of using different types of cheese in each location. If someone wants to give it a try, go ahead. Please use a sandbox though before thinking of integrating into the quick reference. We could have something like a Cheese Quick Reference List :) It will not be an easy task, but still doable. Remember the golden rule, keep it simple! -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 01:31, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
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::While on the subject, unless I'm missing something, there is no wikilink back from the trap setup option pages to the location page. People often post the trap setup option URLs in the forum but if a user goes there, they can't easily get back to the location page to find further info about that location. --[[User:Winelight|Winelight]] 10:47, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
  
:::Agree it would be subjective, but so too is "recommended cheese". The Cheese Quick Reference List sounds like a better idea. --[[User:Winelight|Winelight]] 16:38, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
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:::It'll be something useful, so why not. Don't even need to talk about since it's an obvious improvement to link back to the location article. You can probably put the link right at the top, with a brief introduction paragraph for every trap option page. -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 12:09, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
  
::::Well they are the cheese that players normally use, hence the recommendation. We're taking the middle ground here mostly, not easy to balance everything out perfectly in a concise article like this :)
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:::: Each Trap Setup Options page has a sentence that goes like "Excluding mice that are rarely encountered [[Harbour]]." This provides a link back to the location. I am okay if we want to highlight this by repeating a link back to the location in the introduction section. -- [[User:Ralphminer|Ralphminer]] 12:18, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
  
::::Oh and before I forget, for anyone planning to take up the task of the cheese reference list, the individual location articles are a good place to start with the writeup on what cheese to use. They are currently lacking in that department. The Hunting Strategy sections had been added precisely for that. The bait preference was intentionally left out of the mice tables because it would have been an inadequate explanation of the intricacies of cheese usage. It can then be compiled and summarized into a '''Cheese Reference List''' of sorts. This would certainly make the task more manageable. -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 17:53, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
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:::: Also the common introduction has "The best combination of a weapon and base at a given [[location]] depends on a number of factors" which allows easy navigation back to locations. -- [[User:Ralphminer|Ralphminer]] 13:01, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
  
"Best cheese" also depends on goals and...  level of aggression in playing is perhaps the best way to put it.  Consider the Dojo, and imagine these players:
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== Calm Clearing ==
*Adam just ranked up to grandmaster, and spent almost all his gold on the ZLM trap.  He likely want to save gold for other parts of the game, and will probably go to the Dojo with Brie - or perhaps even Swiss.  For that matter, if Adam has RB cheese left over from his time as a Master, he might stay in the Mos until it's gone to collect the better gold rewards, even at the expense of leveling up more slowly. 
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The recommended to do list included catching the Foxy Mouse, this makes sense to me since this is an infrequently encountered mouse and it is fun to catch a wide variety of mice. By the same criteria shouldn't the Eagle Owl mouse be listed? They both can be caught later as a master in the Great Gnarled Tree. -- [[User:Ralphminer|Ralphminer]] 13:21, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
*Betty can afford to donate to MH for all the sb+ she could possibly desire.  One of her major life obsessions is to climb the points scoreboard.  Betty wants to spend the minimum possible time as a grandmaster and get into Bristle Woods where the point rewards are better. She would certainly use sb+ in the dojo - knowing that she's actually losing gold versus selling the cheese and not playing at all.  She doesn't particularly care about that though - she wants those points!
 
*Chuck is a knight hunter who through poor luck, spending time in inefficient areas, or just not having played recently is still missing the Onyx Stone.  Having spent months on the Moz, he has 4 million gold.  Chuck knows he needs an onyx stone to make the acro trap, and that he can't play effectively at high levels without that trap.  He's going to use maki - sure it will cost gold, but statistically it will get that mojo sooner. 
 
*Danielle is a GM hunter, but she either got her onyx stone or doesn't care.  She wants to unlock the Monster, Nibbler, Mole and a few others that she missed.  She's probably not going to be in the dojo at all. -- [[User:Pakaran|Pakaran]] 18:23, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 
  
Pakaran you have given an excellent suggestion for the different categories of cheese usage. They shall tentatively be named the ''gold diggers'', the ''scoreboard climbers'', the ''Dev's hate you! aka DHY!'', and the ''shadow fillers''. FYI the ''cheese stalers'' generally fall between both the ''gold diggers'' and the ''scoreboard climbers'' :D Any more categories would be welcome. But there's a start for those interested in doing up the '''Cheese Reference List'''. -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 17:27, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
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== Cape Clawed ==
  
I removed "ancient" from recommended cheese for the acolyte realm. You really don't want to be hunting with ancient in the AR - you only catch gate guardians. A completely pointless waste. --[[User:Winelight|Winelight]] 21:52, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
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This looked like the best place to ask this on this page...if not, feel free to move it to a better section.  On the listings of "must-do"/"recommended" in the Cape Clawed location, I was looking through the recent edits and noticed something of a back-and-forth over things...I can see the rationale for both, but it seems as though the "must-do" items (at least according to the description in the above section) should be the bare-bones requisites to progress from an area, while the "recommended" items are things that would be helpful/trip-savers, but not essential.
  
I suggest removing Superbrie as the recommended cheese for S.S. Huntington and the areas in the Tribal Isles. Superbrie can as well be listed as recommended in most other areas, and this is mentioned in its description. [[User:Artyom|Artyom]] 00:07, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
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With this in mind, having the "collect items for crafting xx,xx,xx, etc." line under "must-do" makes some sense, since the natural progression from the Cape is to the color locations, though it's not a hard and fast "you must do this to leave Cape Clawed" requisite. The purchase of the Torn blueprint piece as a "must-do" makes almost no sense, as the players can't do anything with it until they are finished with the color locations (and will likely be making several trips back to the Cape for Gouda before being able to craft the Box anyways). I simply submit this for what other people here think; it just makes more sense -- by the definition of terms for this whole page -- to stick to "absolute requisites" for the "must-do" section and leave conveniences and such in the "recommended" section.
  
:That makes a lot of sense. We don't mention limited edition traps because not everyone has them and if they do they usually don't need encouragement to use them. I think that's similar to SB+ - not everyone can afford it, and if they do they probably know when to use it. -- [[User:Camomiletea|Camomiletea]] 00:22, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
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Perhaps a certain character can be instituted to differentiate between purposes of recommendations (such as to keep from having to make an otherwise-unnecessary trip back, etc.)?  Would of course be helpful, but don't know how it would play into your overall scheme here, so again, it's submitted for your thoughts. (Sorry so long, by the way.) -- [[User:JasonTheHunter|JasonTheHunter]]
  
== Cheese Ranking Chart ==
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: I agree that we have a dispute that needs to be settled - and the best place to have this discussion is in these Talk pages. Right now we have an issue that getting the Ancient Torn Blueprint is under things you must do - but getting the Ancient Spear is only a recommendation. They are both needed to craft more advanced traps. Looking at the Ambush Trap in previous sections - the guidelines of the Wiki are to leave choices about which traps a hunter should use under the recommended section. So my recommendation is to move the Ancient Torn Blueprints to the Recommended area. -- [[User:Ralphminer|Ralphminer]] 09:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Tossing some stuff out to see if anyone picks it up. Using 1 as the "best" cheese for a category:
 
<!-- Example starts here -->
 
;Cheese Ranking for Town of Gnawnia
 
This is a rough guideline on which cheese is best suited for a particular category. It is further affected by your trap availability and choices, but holds true in most cases. 1 represents the best choice.
 
{| class="sortable" cellpadding="8" border="1" style="border-collapse:collapse; text-align:center; margin: 0 0 20px 20px;"
 
|- valign="bottom" bgcolor="#dddddd"
 
! width="80" | Cheese<br />
 
! width="50" | Profits<br />
 
! width="50" | Points<br />
 
! width="50" | Staling<br />
 
! width="50" | Rare<br />Mice<br />
 
|-
 
| style="text-align:left;" | Cheddar
 
| 2 || 5 || 1 || 5
 
|-
 
| style="text-align:left;" | Marble
 
| 1 || 4 || 2 || 4
 
|-
 
| style="text-align:left;" | Swiss
 
| 3 || 3 || 3 || 3
 
|-
 
| style="text-align:left;" | Brie
 
| 4 || 2 || 4 || 2
 
|-
 
| style="text-align:left;" | SUPER|brie+
 
| 5 || 1 || - || 1
 
|}
 
<!-- End of example -->
 
This table can probably be further improved, for example adding a writeup on the reasoning for the "best" cheese in each category, and changes will be needed depending on location and the number of cheese in use, but I think this will help get things moving on the '''Cheese Ranking Chart'''. -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 17:09, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 
  
==Bazaar==
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== Great Gnarled Tree ==
Shouldn't "Repairing the Tattered Mousoleum Map" be under "Things you MUST do"? It seems pretty clear that you cant advance in the game without that. --[[User:Shinnok|Shinnok]] 06:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 
  
:When you first reach Bazaar, you don't have to repair both maps, and it would be very costly. Perhaps, it can be moved to things you must do with a note "once you are at or close to Legendary rank". Feel free to make the change. [[User:Camomiletea|Camomiletea]] 15:00, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
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I would recommend adding the [[Mutated Venus Mouse Trap]] under the list of recommend traps. The [[Mouse Deathbot]] and [[NVMRC Forcefield Trap]] can be moved to minimum traps if we need the space. -- [[User:Ralphminer|Ralphminer]] 13:14, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
  
==Furoma==
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=== Propose Change to GGT "Must Do" ===
Overall, I think this new page is absolutely brilliant.  One thing that I found a little odd as a newbie was in the Furoma locations, where the "recommended trap" for the Training Grounds, Dojo, and Meditation Room is listed as Ambush.  While I agree that this trap is more effective than Zugzwang, AFAIK it can't actually be crafted until you've caught the appropriate mice in the Meditation Room.  It seems strange to be recommending the use of a trap that can't actually be crafted until you've passed that stage of the game ... is it just me?  (Noted, this is from the POV of someone who is just starting out at the TG now, so I've not actually lived through this part of the game yet.)--[[User:Gemelli|Gemelli]] 23:29, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 
  
:Perhaps you are right about the Training Grounds section (that may need to be changed to say just "Any Tactical Trap"), but usually you would go back to Dojo/Meditation Room again after you've crafted Ambush, so that you can get more tokens/shards for crafting Rumble and going after the Master of the Dojo in the Pinnacle Room. [[User:Camomiletea|Camomiletea]] 23:40, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
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The "Things You Must Do" section for the GGT currently reads:
  
::I think it's alright to leave it in there since some players do return for the Nibbler and Monk mice. Putting "any tactical trap" won't make much of a difference since there's only 2 traps available to players and we've listed them both :P Not counting special edition Snow Barrage of course. The Furoma region is somewhat special in that players are frequently expected to travel between all 4 locations, Training Grounds for supplies, Dojo for tokens, Meditation Room for shards, and Pinnacle for stones. Which also explains the very low travel costs of 25 to 750 gold. -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 03:56, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
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<div style="border-left: 2px solid #dddddd; padding: .5em;">
 +
▪ Catch a [[Fairy Mouse]] with a Lagoon Map<br /><span style="font-size:80%; padding-left:120px;">AND</span><br />▪ Reach [[Grandmaster]] to access the [[Lagoon]]
 +
</div>
  
== Catacombs ==
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I propose that the second bullet point should be removed. Within the "Experienced Hunters" section, no other location includes discussion of rank, even though there are other places where players tend to have to wait to advance in rank before progressing. So it's inconsistent to include that info in GGT, and also unnecessary — by time a hunter has gotten that far in the game, he/she can read the map to see that leveling up is required to progress. (Not to mention that Lagoon is listed under Grandmaster on the walkthrough, and the [[Lagoon]] page explicitly says it's for GM & above.)
  
There is evidence that a Portal trap works in Catacombs [http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?xid=mousehunt_strategy&app_id=10337532241&c_url=http%253A%252F%252Fapps.facebook.com%252Fmousehunt%252Fboards.php&r_url=http%253A%252F%252Fapps.facebook.com%252Fmousehunt%252Fboards.php&sig=0936ad0f294126dec6eedd6539607b9b&topic=46862&post=531487] (the poster caught Spiders, Scavengers, Oozes, Keeper's Assistants and Skeletons in addition to some of the mice available in Moz), so I adjusted the minimum trap requirement. -- [[User:Camomiletea|Camomiletea]] 23:20, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
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I don't think this will be a controversial edit, but given the importance of the page wanted to gain consensus first. --[[User:GoBecky|GoBecky]] 13:16, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
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: Sounds good to me -- [[User:Ralphminer|Ralphminer]] 05:34, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
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::+1 … ___[[User:M.|_m.]] 20:53, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
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I've gone ahead and removed the Grandmaster ranking from the "Must Do" list, seeing as it's been a few days and nobody's expressed any issue with the change. —[[User:MearsMan|<b><font color="#B22222">'''''MearsMan'''''</font></b>]] [[User talk:MearsMan|<font color="#008B8B"><sup><u>''talk''</u></sup></font>]] 00:31, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
  
== Dehydration Base ==
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== Lagoon ==
  
I just noticed that a little while ago a suggestion to "Craft a Dehydration Base" has been added for the Mountain (and was now also added to Calm Clearing). Should it be there, considering that at Journeyman rank crafting that base can fail? -- [[User:Camomiletea|Camomiletea]] 03:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
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A special note is in order regarding the Lagoon.  For those who are trying to catch rare shadow mice, for example to collect pictures, it is reasonable to use the BG and ACRoNYM trapsHowever, these traps are ineffective against tactical mice (which are a significant proportion of those in the area).  In the case of the BG, it also has very low power, so it is ineffective against the Hydra Mouse, which is one of the major goals (perhaps the major goal) of being in the Lagoon in the first place. I think we need to be careful about suggesting these (or any shadow and arcane traps) for general use in the Lagoon.  -- [[User:Pakaran|Pakaran]] 03:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
:There should probably be some change made to at least ensure it's clear the crafting could fail if you're a journeymanWhat to change it too I'm not sure. [[User:Darkage7|<span style="background:#000;color:#FFF">D<span style="color:#DDD">a<span style="color:#BBB">R<span style="color:#999">kA</span>g</span>E</span>7</span>]][[User talk:Darkage7|<sub>[Talk]</sub>]] 04:31, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 
 
 
::It is somewhat redundant since players have already been told to buy the ingredients for the Base in the Harbour. But if it is left as is, there is no need to make any additional notes about the possibility of failure since they would have almost certainly read about the warning in the [[Dehydration Base]] info page. Keep this page about locations, don't delve too much into crafting details :) -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 16:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 
 
 
 
 
== Additional Travel Requirements? ==
 
  
As a player, I keep finding myself having to switch from this page over to [[Locations]] as I plan ahead, because [[Locations]] lists the "additional travel requirements" (maps, keys, etc). What do you all think of duplicating that information here?
+
== Meditation Room ==
  
It could (and probably will) be argued that it's unnecessary because the player has already been told to collect or repair whatever maps are needed; but IMO, it would be extremely helpful to be able to glance at an area that you haven't been to yet and know what you'll need to get there, without going hunting for that information. Particularly in situations like the Catacombs: it's recommended that the player repair the map while in the Bazaar, but since most won't be able to on their first trip (as the player has to be Legendary to do the repair), that step could easily be forgotten about.
+
I question the inclusion of Thorned Venus Mouse Trap and Horrific Venus Mouse Trap as recommended traps for the Meditation Room since as a Grandmaster I do not have access to the locations that provide these traps. Do advanced hunters commonly come back to the Meditation room? Even though these traps will work better than the Ambush, I would recommend removing them from the recommend trap section. -- [[User:Ralphminer|Ralphminer]] 13:32, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
  
So, I think having a "Travel Requirements" row would be appropriate and helpful. See below for an example.
+
:Good catch on that one. Traps should only be recommended if they are attainable by the majority of hunters just arriving at that location, and not for return trip hunters, since if that was the case the recommended traps would forever be the most powerful weapon for every section. As for other changes, go ahead and make any that you feel is necessary, but remember to put in the justification in the summary. Let the other editors have a look at the changes and decide accordingly. As mentioned in the editing notes, deciding what to put in many of the recommendations is more of an art than a fixed set of rules, so some common sense and flexibility needs to be exercised, but occasionally something odd slips through. -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 14:09, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Thoughts? I'd be more than happy to do the actual editing, if it's agreed upon by the community. --[[User:GoBecky|GoBecky]] 14:43, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 
 
 
=== EXAMPLE: [[Calm Clearing]] (Minimum Rank: Journeyman)===
 
----
 
{| border="1" width="600" cellpadding="8" style="border: 2px solid #0033CC; border-collapse:collapse; text-align:left; margin:15px;"
 
|- valign="top"
 
! width="150" | Recommended Ranks
 
| [[Journeyman]] and above
 
|- valign="top"
 
! Travel Requirements
 
| [[Whisker Woods Clearing Map Piece]]
 
|- valign="top"
 
! Recommended Cheese
 
| [[Marble]] or [[Swiss]] <!--Not sure about this, but sounds good for now. -->
 
|- valign="top"
 
! Minimum Traps
 
| 1) [[Swiss Army Mouse Trap]]<br />▪ paired with [[Stone Base]]
 
|- valign="top"
 
! Recommended Traps
 
| 1) [[NVMRC Forcefield]]<br />2) [[Mouse DeathBot]]<br />▪ paired with [[Explosive Base]] or [[Dehydration Base]]
 
|- valign="top"
 
! Things you must do
 
| ▪ Catch a [[Cyclops Mouse]] with a [[Gnarled Tree Map Piece]] AND
 
▪ Reach Master rank to access the [[Great Gnarled Tree]]
 
|- valign="top"
 
! Recommended<br />To-do List
 
| ▪ Collect [[Splintered Wood]] dropped by [[Treant]] mice
 
|}
 
<hr />
 
Sounds like a good idea. Making the quick reference a quick reference is the goal after all. Would need to reconsider the role of the Locations page though, as it currently is not really useful in any sense except as a redirection page. Appreciate additional comments. -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 13:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Average income / points per location ==
 
 
 
Any possibility of adding average income of points & gold into the location quick reference? It would be a good way to compare locations if the aim is to collect the goods. Naturally the easiest way of calculating this is by pure average and giving it out as a single value. Another way would be to take in to account the averages per trap, that is as a low to high value. Low being the average income with the least effective trap and high with the most effective trap. The alternative is to put the data to the trap setup -options, but the location quick reference would make it easier to compare between locations. --[[User:Skks|skks]] 11:25, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 
 
 
== Lagoon ==
 
 
 
A special note is in order regarding the Lagoon.  For those who are trying to catch rare shadow mice, for example to collect pictures, it is reasonable to use the BG and ACRoNYM traps.  However, these traps are ineffective against tactical mice (which are a significant proportion of those in the area).  In the case of the BG, it also has very low power, so it is ineffective against the Hydra Mouse, which is one of the major goals (perhaps the major goal) of being in the Lagoon in the first place.  I think we need to be careful about suggesting these (or any shadow and arcane traps) for general use in the Lagoon. -- [[User:Pakaran|Pakaran]] 03:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 
  
 
== Section Titles ==
 
== Section Titles ==
Line 217: Line 161:
 
| '''Training Grounds'''
 
| '''Training Grounds'''
 
|}
 
|}
 +
 +
 +
:I was reading old discussions about this page, when it was just a draft. And [[User talk:Camomiletea#Your Newbie Help page|look]], you proposed "Next Destination" even back then. I like that wording. Not sure about what to do about the "dead-ends"... I think I would prefer the combined Prerequisites cell. -- [[User:Camomiletea|Camomiletea]] 02:12, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
::Lol, didn't recall that suggestion until you pointed it out, and still don't remember it after! Regardless, I like my own idea past idea :D Looking at things now though, we're trying not to herd players in a particular direction, so I think it would be better to name it Next Recommended Destination. We'll stick with Prerequisites, since that is a firm requirement, thus merging the previous location with travel requirements, so we'll get something like "Prerequisites: Visited '''Laboratory''' and collected '''Key to the Town of Digby'''"
 +
::As for the dead-ends that we haven't decided on, we will not add the Next Destination for those locations. Hopefully again, everything will fall into place once the big picture gets clearer. -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 06:02, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
In Summary from the previous reply, this is the final draft of changes that will be made:
 +
===[[Town of Digby]]===
 +
----
 +
{| border="1" width="600" cellpadding="8" style="border: 2px solid #0033CC; border-collapse:collapse; text-align:left; margin:15px;"
 +
|- valign="top"
 +
! Prerequisites
 +
| Visited [[Location Quick Reference#Laboratory|Laboratory]] and found [[Key to the Town of Digby]]
 +
|- valign="top"
 +
! width="150" | Recommended Ranks
 +
| [[Master]] and above
 +
|- valign="top"
 +
! Recommended Cheese
 +
| [[Swiss]] or [[Brie]]
 +
|- valign="top"
 +
! Minimum Traps
 +
| [[Swiss Army Mouse Trap]]
 +
|- valign="top"
 +
! Recommended Traps
 +
| [[Mouse DeathBot]]<br/>[[NVMRC Forcefield Trap]]
 +
|- valign="top"
 +
! Things you must do
 +
| Buy a [[Sinister Portal]] or [[Ambrosial Portal]] for use in the [[Mousoleum]]
 +
|- valign="top"
 +
! Recommended<br/>To-do List
 +
| Catch a [[Mole Mouse]] with the [[Torn Pages of Plankrun's Journal|Back Cover of Plankrun's Journal]]<br/>Catch a [[Mole Mouse]] with the [[Shredded Furoma Map Piece]]<br/>Collect [[Meteorite]] pieces dropped by [[Granite]] mice for crafting [[Moon]] cheese
 +
|- valign="top"
 +
! Next Recommended Destination
 +
| [[Location Quick Reference#Training Grounds|Training Grounds]]
 +
|}
 +
-- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 07:28, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
About the edits made by M., just like to clarify that ONLY location links under the '''Prerequisites''' and '''Next Recommended Destination''' will lead to a related section within the Location Quick Reference article. Other location links will remain the same, ie linking to the actual page. This is to get players accustomed to using the top and bottom rows as an easy navigation tool, and to give players a feel of the location flow that we used to be able to present when the progression was linear. At the same time, the aim is to keep the main bulk of the information easy to link to the other relevant links within the wiki, which is also the original intention of this article. Concise and to the point, with further required information that can be found a click away in the link.
 +
 +
As for the ▪ ▪ ▪, I'm not sure we should do away with them. When the text is lengthy, they will appear to be flowing to the next line, making it seem like one paragraph rather than separate items. Let me have your comments on this. Also, if there's any suggestions to improve the visual presentation of the individual sections, let me know. The original thick blue border with thin cell lines was actually a skeleton layout. If anyone can come up with a better design/layout, do share. If you're unsure, you can throw out some ideas here and see if anyone else can work on it. -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 15:14, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
:It seems to me that the next location after Town of Digby is Mousoleum, unless you are skipping it (which isn't the regular route). Both could be listed in the Next Recommended Destination, I guess.
 +
:I found it interesting that M. made Mousoleum internal link to a related section, but I tend to agree with you that such links should lead to the actual location page. Keep the intra-page navigation in the top and bottom row.
 +
:I'd like to keep the bullet points ▪, especially in cells with lists. What I mean is in the Town of Digby example above: Recommended Traps, Recommended To-Do List. But if you bullet point the Recommended To-Do List, it doesn't look right to leave the Things you must do without a bullet, even though there's only one item there. So at least those 3 in that particular example. Does this make sense? -- [[User:Camomiletea|Camomiletea]] 15:37, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
::Well I almost forget there's 2 routes out of the Town of Digby, since I was just considering that players get lucky enough in the town and pick up the map piece and can head to the TG. No harm in listing the Mousoleum as well, since that's the route the majority of players will probably end up taking. Anyways most importantly is to get the rows in once we're decided. Once that is done, there will be more eyes on it and corrections will be made as needed. -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 16:15, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
::Am editing the '''Prerequisites''' and '''Next Recommended Destination''' in at the moment, and I realized that the Recommended Ranks row is relatively redundant, since it doesn't have very much effect on catch rates, as compared to using the right traps, as well as repeating information that is available in the section or location headers. Thus I will be removing them as I go along. -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 13:45, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
Completed the changes. There might be some debate about the '''Prerequisites''' and '''Next Recommended Destination''' due to some ambiguity with the location flow. But before anyone makes any further changes to either of the rows, please make sure to explain fully your rationale here. -- [[User:Grexx|Grexx]] 15:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
== Town of Digby - Must Do section ==
 +
 +
It is still important to list purchasing the Portal from Town of Digby, because that's the best weapon available for Mousoleum. Mousoleum itself has no shop, nor is there another way to obtain a Shadow weapon (I think the new shadow trap is going to be limited event, since you won't be able to obtain the parts for Nannybot)... It may be discussed whethere it should be mentioned in Must do or Recommended, but it's important that it is there in one of the two. -- [[User:Camomiletea|camomiletea]] 18:59, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 +
:P.S. The edit that arbitrarily removed the purchasing traps + moving to Mousoleum, but kept the catching Mole Mouse with Furoma map as a Must-do, is also incorrect. You don't have to catch the Mole Mouse with the Furoma map if you just go to Mousoleum - you can get the map there instead. This is the reason the two parts were connected with an "OR". You must do one of the two to progress. But it is incorrect to remove one and say you MUST do the other one, when there is another option. -- [[User:Camomiletea|camomiletea]] 19:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 +
:: Yeah, [[User:Camomiletea|camomiletea]], you're right… explained that way, it does make sense. I was just scanning through the walkthrough and that section really caught my eye, since it's kind of a unique situation to put weapon purchases in "must do" (and honestly, it's been so long since I was in that part of the game, I forgot about the split path). Thank you for explaining the revert and not just yelling at me! :) Lesson learned. --[[User:GoBecky|GoBecky]] 12:48, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 +
 +
== King's Gauntlet ==
 +
 +
With the big update I just did to the Location Quick Reference, I added the Windmill and King's Gauntlet.  The King's Gauntlet fits into the new hunter section in terms of its rank requirement, but I feel it may also be confusing to people, for the devs said a rank of Hero will be recommended to complete it.  Newcomers reading the opening section of the Location Quick Reference would have no clue what a Tactical setup is, nor where to get one.  Thus, I propose that we transfer it into the "Experienced Hunters" section despite its low rank requirement.  Oh, and while we're talking about the King's Gauntlet, I might mention how weird its required rank of Apprentice looks right now.  I'm sure the devs will fix this soon, so we might as well leave it as Initiate (with the disclaimer) on the page. --[[User:Dreamwalker|Dreamwalker]] 00:02, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 +
 +
:I support moving it to experienced section. Any ideas about its placement there? It's sort of a side-quest, where people can keep returning at various ranks after they get appropriate traps. Maybe give it a separate section at the end? And divide it into the separate tiers. I think it could get confusing to list all the recommendations for 8 tiers in the same table. And then we could explain which rank recommended for each tier, and have other locations list KG as possible "next destination" (i.e. when a hunter gets a tactical trap, a hydro trap, etc.). -- [[User:Camomiletea|camomiletea]] 07:47, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 +
 +
:: Recommended to do list. What is the criteria for listing the mice. I would suggest that we only include the rarer mice. So for Tier 1 & 2: Replace Catch the Puppet Master Mouse with Catch the Rogue Mouse. For Tier 3 & 4: Replace Catch the Cavalier Mouse with Catch the Fencer and Dancer mice. For Tier 5: Replace Catch the Ignis Mouse with Catch the Black Mage. --[[User:Ralphminer|Ralphminer]] 09:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 +
 +
:::Puppet Master is rare, I disagree with removing him, but adding Rogue might be good. Agree with the rest. -- [[User:Camomiletea|camomiletea]] 03:57, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 +
 +
== Sanity Check on Prerequisites Needed ==
 +
 +
Why do we list SS Huntington II and Ocean Navigation Kit as prerequisites to Dracano? The prerequisites should be more along the lines of what is needed to hunt in Dracano. You can't go straight from SSH to Dracano; you need to obtain the trap and bait necessary. Therefore prerequisites should be more like: "Visited Nerg Plains, Derr Dunes, Elub Shore, Forbidden Grove". Similar sanity check is needed for Jungle of Dread prerequisites, etc. -- [[User:Camomiletea|camomiletea]] 04:38, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 +
 +
== S. S. Huntington II ==
 +
 +
Should the recommended cheese for SS Huntington still include [[Gnarled]]?  I have not tested that yet.  Meanwhile, I debated about adding [[Gouda]] per my comment on the facebook thread, then decided not to.  In general, a user cannot obtain Gouda until after they have conquered SS Huntington in the first place (excluding any Gouda left over from MH 2.0 King's rewards), so only [[Brie]] (and maybe Gnarled) are available when first entering the area. [[User:Ericb|Ericb]] 02:46, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 +
 +
== Slushy Shoreline ==
 +
I would recommend that the Heat Bath trap be removed as a recommended trap. It is difficult to get and does not perform as well as the Steam Laser traps. --[[User:Ralphminer|Ralphminer]] 19:30, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 16:48, 8 January 2014

Editing Notes

General Guidelines


  • Write-ups must be brief, without losing the meaning. For example, in the Bazaar, players are not just advised to visit the Cartographer, but also informed of the reasons why.
  • Each location section should be self contained. With the exception of the Prerequisites and Next Recommended Destination subsections, the only link players need to follow is contained within the section and do not lead to other sections.
  • It is acceptable to repeat what was previously mentioned in another section as long as it makes sense for the section in question.
  • If a cheese/trap combination is specific to catch 1 to 3 breeds of mice out of the many others in a location, it should not be put under recommended traps or recommended cheese, but should instead be included in the recommended to-do list. An example would be catching Monsters in the Laboratory. Catching Monsters there require the specific use of Radioactive Blue, along with a good physical trap. But using Radioactive Blue results in poor or negative gold returns in the Laboratory, so not exactly a good choice unless the player is aiming for a heavy Monster. Hence RB is not recorded as recommended cheese, but can be included as the writeup under the To-Do list as "Catch a Monster Mouse using Radioactive Blue."
  • Do not include SUPER|brie+ as recommended cheese, although it can be suggested for a particular mouse catch, like Cook or Worker.
  • Editors should note that these set of guidelines are just that. They are not concrete rules. Do exercise logic and common sense if something seems out of place, or if there are certain missing links that need to be added in.

Sectioning


Newcomers Section

  • Section is reserved for locations accessible to minimum ranks from Novice to Journeyman. This is to ensure that players new to the game have less text to read through and to prevent information overload.
  • New locations should first be placed within the respective rank sections, and then in alphabetical order of location.

Experienced Hunters Section

  • Section covers the locations that can be accessed by all other ranks from Master and beyond. Mainly used to hold the remaining locations. It must not be split into further sections unless there is an absolute need to. For example, splitting further into Master-Grandmaster and Legendary & above for cosmetic purposes is not acceptable, unless game design happens to make a clear distinction in future.
  • New locations should first be placed within the respective rank sections, and then in alphabetical order of location.

Subsection guidelines


Prerequisites

  • Prerequisites for experienced hunters should not include the rank requirement, as that is already covered in the general section heading.
  • In the event where one Map or Key grants access to multiple locations, that location where it is found/crafted/purchased should be listed, as well as any previous location that should not be skipped. For example, in the Pinnacle Chamber, it is written as "Visited Meditation Room and previously purchased Furoma Map Stitch from Bazaar", thus covering both the travel requirements, as well as the need to have collected a sufficient amount of shards, which is itself mentioned within the Things you must do section within Meditation Room.

Recommended Ranks

  • Recommended Ranks is exclusive to the Newcomers section, and is meant to guide players to avoid spending too much time in a location. It should not be added to the Experienced Hunters section as the game has many branches at this point in time and players are expected to decide which location to move to themselves based on their current progress.

Recommended Cheese

  • Recommended Cheese mentions the most useful cheese(s) for the location that is available to the majority of players. Thus SUPER|brie+ is not mentioned here as it is almost always the best choice in place of Brie or Gouda, but is restricted mostly only to donors.

Minimum and Recommended Traps

  • Minimum Traps does not refer to the bare minimum trap possible, ie Tacky Glue Trap in the Harbour. Rather, it would be a trap(s) that has players seeing red boxes or stolen cheese often in a particular location, and yet still make a reasonable gold and points profit. Therefore an important point to note is that just being able to catch some mice in a location using a particular trap does not qualify it as a Minimum Trap.
  • Recommended Traps contains the next better trap(s) that helps improve catch rates. However, there is usually an element whereby players might (and probably will) hold back from buying the trap due to the amount of usage the better trap will see in the current and further locations, or that players will only be able to afford the trap at the tail end of their visit to a location. Therefore for most players, the Recommended Trap is typically out of reach on their initial visit to a location unless they came fully prepared from prior locations.
  • Both Minimum and Recommended Traps do not have very precise guidelines. This becomes especially obvious for newly introduced locations, thus care should be taken before including a particular trap in either of the subsections. It should at the very least be backed by experience from a reasonable number of personal hunts (for example, at least 300 to 500 trap checks in a location), or ideally with data from a large sample of players, or by inference when only a single trap Power Type works well against the mice in a location.
  • When unsure of what could be fall under the Minimum Trap, editors can look at the list of possible Recommended Traps instead, and work backwards by considering traps that are somewhat weaker.
  • Minimum and Recommended Traps include both the Weapon and Base for Newcomers, but only mention Weapons for Experienced Hunters. This is to ensure that Newcomers acquire at least the basic Bases for use further down the line.
  • Do not include any time limited traps in the write-up. They are not readily available and would very likely end up confusing newer players.

Things you must do / Recommended To-do List

  • These two subsections typically covers the mice that players have to (or should) catch and the loot drops they need to acquire from these mice, such as a Map or Key or Crafting ingredients etc. The main difference being that the former is firm on what needs to be done, without which players will be unable to progress in the game, while the latter mainly advises players, and this advice can be safely ignored at this point in time.
  • Do not include any time limited mice in the write-up. They are not readily available and would very likely end up confusing newer players.
  • For crafted items, do not list down individual ingredients or additional notes. List only the final product. Further details should be easily available in the respective articles.

Next Recommended Destination

  • Recommended Destinations should either be of the same or higher rank requirement compared to the current location. Players should not be sent back towards a lower ranked location unless it is part of game design, such as from the Jungle of Dread to the Acolyte Realm. Otherwise, for example at the Pinnacle Chamber, players are sent towards the Catacombs or S.S. Huntington II, rather than to lower ranked locations.

Please do not make any major changes directly to the guidelines. They should first be discussed below. -- Grexx 20:02, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Discussions

I would like to add a link on the word "Recommend Traps" to link to the various Trap Setup Option Pages. This would provide easy navigation to hunters for a list of options. Any concerns? -- Ralphminer 03:06, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't think it would be a good idea as the links can already be found through the location articles. Most importantly, the recommended traps and trap options are not completely in sync, so it would put that difference in the spotlight. Would like to avoid this since questions about consistency would crop up about the bases and cheese. I would rather it be put up under a brief writeup in the introduction on how to navigate the quick reference itself and further links that can be looked at. It is on my list of things to do currently, but won't be getting to it so soon. -- Grexx 06:20, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
While on the subject, unless I'm missing something, there is no wikilink back from the trap setup option pages to the location page. People often post the trap setup option URLs in the forum but if a user goes there, they can't easily get back to the location page to find further info about that location. --Winelight 10:47, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
It'll be something useful, so why not. Don't even need to talk about since it's an obvious improvement to link back to the location article. You can probably put the link right at the top, with a brief introduction paragraph for every trap option page. -- Grexx 12:09, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Each Trap Setup Options page has a sentence that goes like "Excluding mice that are rarely encountered Harbour." This provides a link back to the location. I am okay if we want to highlight this by repeating a link back to the location in the introduction section. -- Ralphminer 12:18, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Also the common introduction has "The best combination of a weapon and base at a given location depends on a number of factors" which allows easy navigation back to locations. -- Ralphminer 13:01, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Calm Clearing

The recommended to do list included catching the Foxy Mouse, this makes sense to me since this is an infrequently encountered mouse and it is fun to catch a wide variety of mice. By the same criteria shouldn't the Eagle Owl mouse be listed? They both can be caught later as a master in the Great Gnarled Tree. -- Ralphminer 13:21, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Cape Clawed

This looked like the best place to ask this on this page...if not, feel free to move it to a better section. On the listings of "must-do"/"recommended" in the Cape Clawed location, I was looking through the recent edits and noticed something of a back-and-forth over things...I can see the rationale for both, but it seems as though the "must-do" items (at least according to the description in the above section) should be the bare-bones requisites to progress from an area, while the "recommended" items are things that would be helpful/trip-savers, but not essential.

With this in mind, having the "collect items for crafting xx,xx,xx, etc." line under "must-do" makes some sense, since the natural progression from the Cape is to the color locations, though it's not a hard and fast "you must do this to leave Cape Clawed" requisite. The purchase of the Torn blueprint piece as a "must-do" makes almost no sense, as the players can't do anything with it until they are finished with the color locations (and will likely be making several trips back to the Cape for Gouda before being able to craft the Box anyways). I simply submit this for what other people here think; it just makes more sense -- by the definition of terms for this whole page -- to stick to "absolute requisites" for the "must-do" section and leave conveniences and such in the "recommended" section.

Perhaps a certain character can be instituted to differentiate between purposes of recommendations (such as to keep from having to make an otherwise-unnecessary trip back, etc.)? Would of course be helpful, but don't know how it would play into your overall scheme here, so again, it's submitted for your thoughts. (Sorry so long, by the way.) -- JasonTheHunter

I agree that we have a dispute that needs to be settled - and the best place to have this discussion is in these Talk pages. Right now we have an issue that getting the Ancient Torn Blueprint is under things you must do - but getting the Ancient Spear is only a recommendation. They are both needed to craft more advanced traps. Looking at the Ambush Trap in previous sections - the guidelines of the Wiki are to leave choices about which traps a hunter should use under the recommended section. So my recommendation is to move the Ancient Torn Blueprints to the Recommended area. -- Ralphminer 09:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Great Gnarled Tree

I would recommend adding the Mutated Venus Mouse Trap under the list of recommend traps. The Mouse Deathbot and NVMRC Forcefield Trap can be moved to minimum traps if we need the space. -- Ralphminer 13:14, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Propose Change to GGT "Must Do"

The "Things You Must Do" section for the GGT currently reads:

▪ Catch a Fairy Mouse with a Lagoon Map
AND
▪ Reach Grandmaster to access the Lagoon

I propose that the second bullet point should be removed. Within the "Experienced Hunters" section, no other location includes discussion of rank, even though there are other places where players tend to have to wait to advance in rank before progressing. So it's inconsistent to include that info in GGT, and also unnecessary — by time a hunter has gotten that far in the game, he/she can read the map to see that leveling up is required to progress. (Not to mention that Lagoon is listed under Grandmaster on the walkthrough, and the Lagoon page explicitly says it's for GM & above.)

I don't think this will be a controversial edit, but given the importance of the page wanted to gain consensus first. --GoBecky 13:16, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good to me -- Ralphminer 05:34, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
+1 … ____m. 20:53, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and removed the Grandmaster ranking from the "Must Do" list, seeing as it's been a few days and nobody's expressed any issue with the change. —MearsMan talk 00:31, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Lagoon

A special note is in order regarding the Lagoon. For those who are trying to catch rare shadow mice, for example to collect pictures, it is reasonable to use the BG and ACRoNYM traps. However, these traps are ineffective against tactical mice (which are a significant proportion of those in the area). In the case of the BG, it also has very low power, so it is ineffective against the Hydra Mouse, which is one of the major goals (perhaps the major goal) of being in the Lagoon in the first place. I think we need to be careful about suggesting these (or any shadow and arcane traps) for general use in the Lagoon. -- Pakaran 03:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Meditation Room

I question the inclusion of Thorned Venus Mouse Trap and Horrific Venus Mouse Trap as recommended traps for the Meditation Room since as a Grandmaster I do not have access to the locations that provide these traps. Do advanced hunters commonly come back to the Meditation room? Even though these traps will work better than the Ambush, I would recommend removing them from the recommend trap section. -- Ralphminer 13:32, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Good catch on that one. Traps should only be recommended if they are attainable by the majority of hunters just arriving at that location, and not for return trip hunters, since if that was the case the recommended traps would forever be the most powerful weapon for every section. As for other changes, go ahead and make any that you feel is necessary, but remember to put in the justification in the summary. Let the other editors have a look at the changes and decide accordingly. As mentioned in the editing notes, deciding what to put in many of the recommendations is more of an art than a fixed set of rules, so some common sense and flexibility needs to be exercised, but occasionally something odd slips through. -- Grexx 14:09, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Section Titles

The list of locations is getting longer and is making the search for a particular location somewhat harder than it should be due to the inclusion of the rank requirement. Planning on doing minor revamp of the way the experienced hunter sections are laid out by dividing based on rank, namely Master, Grandmaster, Legendary, and Hero and above, removing the rank requirement from the title. Rank requirement in the location title will be retained for the newcomers section. Thus 'Laboratory (Minimum Rank: Master)' will become 'Laboratory' under the section header 'Minimum Rank: Master' or similar. Comments/violent objections? --Grexx 17:25, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I second this notion! Go for it!! _____m. 22:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Alphabetical ordering of locations

Path information should not be implied in the ordering of the locations simply because there is no fixed order of progression with the various paths the developers have added, hence the list will be properly alphabetized within each rank section, once again. By ordering the locations in a certain way, one would just be trying to push personal views of game progression onto other players. Progression information should be contained within the specific location sections instead. As for those wishing to undo previous changes, I, and other editors kindly ask that proper justifications be given. Empty comments, as well as consecutive minor edits, show a lack of thought into each edit, as well as making it much harder for history checks. -- Grexx 17:19, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

  • In some cases, certain locations are perquisites to other locations (an example being the SSH2 and Derr Dunes). Since the link to Location Quick Reference on the main page says "Walkthrough," it seems (at first) to be absurd to list Derr Dunes before the SSH2. But then when I thought about it some more, it seemed more okay. It's still a brief walkthrough of sorts for each location individually (even if not perfectly tied together), so the name still fits, and hunters would only need to look up what to do in their current location (which has to be one they can travel to), so if Derr Dunes wasn't available to them yet, they'd know to skip over it and come back later when they meet the prerequisite. Alphabetical ordering is also less controversial. No one can argue it's alphabetized one way while another argues it's alphabetized another way... unless the devs start making similarly-named areas with very strange ASCII characters, but I'm rather certain that won't happen. :) --Dreamwalker 19:07, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Next possible location(s)

Planning on adding links at the bottom of each location section, listing out the possible exit points to other locations. The links will lead to the other sections within the Location Quick Reference article, rather than directly to the location page, ie Location Quick Reference#Catacombs rather than Catacombs. Exit points should not be entry points, thus players at the Meditation Room are not directed back to the Dojo to farm for more tokens. Exit points will not replace the Things you must do section, but instead is meant to lay out clearly the possible paths that players can take after each location. I haven't completely thought over the issue, so am looking for some feedback. No rush in this either, since the current form should be quite clear in itself. The naming itself isn't finalized either. Let me know if you have any comments on this :) -- Grexx 17:01, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I like the idea! I'll think about whether I can come up with a name for it. -- Camomiletea 19:50, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Hmmm... it's a decent idea, but the "things you must do" talk about map pieces and such, so people should already know what new locations they've unlocked. However, those don't have links to another part of the Loc Quick Ref (as you said, they go to the article for the location itself, as it should be), so perhaps the extra stuff at the bottom of each location section would be worth it. I suppose I'm neutral on the issue. --Dreamwalker 22:35, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, the intention behind this page originally was to be a kind of walk-through, with locations listed in the order encountered. But devs introduced the alternate pathways, so that it became somewhat impossible to do this in a linear format. Adding the "next stop" sort of thing brings back the original purpose. Oh, btw, "Next Stop" is what I came up with so far: short, simple. -- Camomiletea 23:21, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
As Camomiletea mentioned, the original plan we had was for it to flow in a linear pattern, following the layout of the locations at that point in time in March 2009. Quite a good amount has changed since then, and the layout needs some updating to stay relevant and useful for players. The new subsection will be very brief. A full explanation of the new links will be given under the "For Experienced Hunters" section. The links themselves will just be simple location names, without any further elaboration, which should have been done under the "Things you must do" row.
There will be a couple of "dead-ends" to mark the end of a path. I'm still thinking through if we should link dead-ends back to an earlier location, or the next equivalent location. For example, after the Pinnacle Chamber, marking it as a dead-end is not exactly correct, but neither is linking to a starter location such as the Calm Clearing. Alternatively, we could link it to an equivalent rank location, which in this case would be the Lagoon, or direct players to a higher ranked area such as the Catacombs. So as can be seen, it can get a little complicated. We'll need to decide on an ideal solution that makes sense, and is not confusing either.
A possible solution to this is to add an "Entry Point" link at the top of the Location, thus making it very easy to navigate around the various locations within the Location Quick Reference article. So we'll have something similar to what is shown below. Alternatively, was also considering consolidating in this case, the Previous Stop and Travel Requirements into one renamed as Prerequisites. Let me know your comments and any further suggestions on all of these. -- Grexx 16:16, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Town of Digby


Previous Stop Laboratory
Recommended Ranks Master and above
Travel Requirements Key to the Town of Digby
Recommended Cheese Swiss or Brie
Minimum Traps Swiss Army Mouse Trap
Recommended Traps Mouse DeathBot
NVMRC Forcefield Trap
Things you must do ▪ Buy a Sinister Portal or Ambrosial Portal for use in the Mousoleum
Recommended
To-do List
▪ Catch a Mole Mouse with the Back Cover of Plankrun's Journal
▪ Catch a Mole Mouse with the Shredded Furoma Map Piece
▪ Collect Meteorite pieces dropped by Granite mice for crafting Moon cheese
Next Stop Training Grounds


I was reading old discussions about this page, when it was just a draft. And look, you proposed "Next Destination" even back then. I like that wording. Not sure about what to do about the "dead-ends"... I think I would prefer the combined Prerequisites cell. -- Camomiletea 02:12, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Lol, didn't recall that suggestion until you pointed it out, and still don't remember it after! Regardless, I like my own idea past idea :D Looking at things now though, we're trying not to herd players in a particular direction, so I think it would be better to name it Next Recommended Destination. We'll stick with Prerequisites, since that is a firm requirement, thus merging the previous location with travel requirements, so we'll get something like "Prerequisites: Visited Laboratory and collected Key to the Town of Digby"
As for the dead-ends that we haven't decided on, we will not add the Next Destination for those locations. Hopefully again, everything will fall into place once the big picture gets clearer. -- Grexx 06:02, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

In Summary from the previous reply, this is the final draft of changes that will be made:

Town of Digby


Prerequisites Visited Laboratory and found Key to the Town of Digby
Recommended Ranks Master and above
Recommended Cheese Swiss or Brie
Minimum Traps Swiss Army Mouse Trap
Recommended Traps Mouse DeathBot
NVMRC Forcefield Trap
Things you must do Buy a Sinister Portal or Ambrosial Portal for use in the Mousoleum
Recommended
To-do List
Catch a Mole Mouse with the Back Cover of Plankrun's Journal
Catch a Mole Mouse with the Shredded Furoma Map Piece
Collect Meteorite pieces dropped by Granite mice for crafting Moon cheese
Next Recommended Destination Training Grounds

-- Grexx 07:28, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

About the edits made by M., just like to clarify that ONLY location links under the Prerequisites and Next Recommended Destination will lead to a related section within the Location Quick Reference article. Other location links will remain the same, ie linking to the actual page. This is to get players accustomed to using the top and bottom rows as an easy navigation tool, and to give players a feel of the location flow that we used to be able to present when the progression was linear. At the same time, the aim is to keep the main bulk of the information easy to link to the other relevant links within the wiki, which is also the original intention of this article. Concise and to the point, with further required information that can be found a click away in the link.

As for the ▪ ▪ ▪, I'm not sure we should do away with them. When the text is lengthy, they will appear to be flowing to the next line, making it seem like one paragraph rather than separate items. Let me have your comments on this. Also, if there's any suggestions to improve the visual presentation of the individual sections, let me know. The original thick blue border with thin cell lines was actually a skeleton layout. If anyone can come up with a better design/layout, do share. If you're unsure, you can throw out some ideas here and see if anyone else can work on it. -- Grexx 15:14, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that the next location after Town of Digby is Mousoleum, unless you are skipping it (which isn't the regular route). Both could be listed in the Next Recommended Destination, I guess.
I found it interesting that M. made Mousoleum internal link to a related section, but I tend to agree with you that such links should lead to the actual location page. Keep the intra-page navigation in the top and bottom row.
I'd like to keep the bullet points ▪, especially in cells with lists. What I mean is in the Town of Digby example above: Recommended Traps, Recommended To-Do List. But if you bullet point the Recommended To-Do List, it doesn't look right to leave the Things you must do without a bullet, even though there's only one item there. So at least those 3 in that particular example. Does this make sense? -- Camomiletea 15:37, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Well I almost forget there's 2 routes out of the Town of Digby, since I was just considering that players get lucky enough in the town and pick up the map piece and can head to the TG. No harm in listing the Mousoleum as well, since that's the route the majority of players will probably end up taking. Anyways most importantly is to get the rows in once we're decided. Once that is done, there will be more eyes on it and corrections will be made as needed. -- Grexx 16:15, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Am editing the Prerequisites and Next Recommended Destination in at the moment, and I realized that the Recommended Ranks row is relatively redundant, since it doesn't have very much effect on catch rates, as compared to using the right traps, as well as repeating information that is available in the section or location headers. Thus I will be removing them as I go along. -- Grexx 13:45, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Completed the changes. There might be some debate about the Prerequisites and Next Recommended Destination due to some ambiguity with the location flow. But before anyone makes any further changes to either of the rows, please make sure to explain fully your rationale here. -- Grexx 15:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Town of Digby - Must Do section

It is still important to list purchasing the Portal from Town of Digby, because that's the best weapon available for Mousoleum. Mousoleum itself has no shop, nor is there another way to obtain a Shadow weapon (I think the new shadow trap is going to be limited event, since you won't be able to obtain the parts for Nannybot)... It may be discussed whethere it should be mentioned in Must do or Recommended, but it's important that it is there in one of the two. -- camomiletea 18:59, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

P.S. The edit that arbitrarily removed the purchasing traps + moving to Mousoleum, but kept the catching Mole Mouse with Furoma map as a Must-do, is also incorrect. You don't have to catch the Mole Mouse with the Furoma map if you just go to Mousoleum - you can get the map there instead. This is the reason the two parts were connected with an "OR". You must do one of the two to progress. But it is incorrect to remove one and say you MUST do the other one, when there is another option. -- camomiletea 19:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, camomiletea, you're right… explained that way, it does make sense. I was just scanning through the walkthrough and that section really caught my eye, since it's kind of a unique situation to put weapon purchases in "must do" (and honestly, it's been so long since I was in that part of the game, I forgot about the split path). Thank you for explaining the revert and not just yelling at me! :) Lesson learned. --GoBecky 12:48, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

King's Gauntlet

With the big update I just did to the Location Quick Reference, I added the Windmill and King's Gauntlet. The King's Gauntlet fits into the new hunter section in terms of its rank requirement, but I feel it may also be confusing to people, for the devs said a rank of Hero will be recommended to complete it. Newcomers reading the opening section of the Location Quick Reference would have no clue what a Tactical setup is, nor where to get one. Thus, I propose that we transfer it into the "Experienced Hunters" section despite its low rank requirement. Oh, and while we're talking about the King's Gauntlet, I might mention how weird its required rank of Apprentice looks right now. I'm sure the devs will fix this soon, so we might as well leave it as Initiate (with the disclaimer) on the page. --Dreamwalker 00:02, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I support moving it to experienced section. Any ideas about its placement there? It's sort of a side-quest, where people can keep returning at various ranks after they get appropriate traps. Maybe give it a separate section at the end? And divide it into the separate tiers. I think it could get confusing to list all the recommendations for 8 tiers in the same table. And then we could explain which rank recommended for each tier, and have other locations list KG as possible "next destination" (i.e. when a hunter gets a tactical trap, a hydro trap, etc.). -- camomiletea 07:47, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Recommended to do list. What is the criteria for listing the mice. I would suggest that we only include the rarer mice. So for Tier 1 & 2: Replace Catch the Puppet Master Mouse with Catch the Rogue Mouse. For Tier 3 & 4: Replace Catch the Cavalier Mouse with Catch the Fencer and Dancer mice. For Tier 5: Replace Catch the Ignis Mouse with Catch the Black Mage. --Ralphminer 09:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Puppet Master is rare, I disagree with removing him, but adding Rogue might be good. Agree with the rest. -- camomiletea 03:57, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Sanity Check on Prerequisites Needed

Why do we list SS Huntington II and Ocean Navigation Kit as prerequisites to Dracano? The prerequisites should be more along the lines of what is needed to hunt in Dracano. You can't go straight from SSH to Dracano; you need to obtain the trap and bait necessary. Therefore prerequisites should be more like: "Visited Nerg Plains, Derr Dunes, Elub Shore, Forbidden Grove". Similar sanity check is needed for Jungle of Dread prerequisites, etc. -- camomiletea 04:38, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

S. S. Huntington II

Should the recommended cheese for SS Huntington still include Gnarled? I have not tested that yet. Meanwhile, I debated about adding Gouda per my comment on the facebook thread, then decided not to. In general, a user cannot obtain Gouda until after they have conquered SS Huntington in the first place (excluding any Gouda left over from MH 2.0 King's rewards), so only Brie (and maybe Gnarled) are available when first entering the area. Ericb 02:46, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Slushy Shoreline

I would recommend that the Heat Bath trap be removed as a recommended trap. It is difficult to get and does not perform as well as the Steam Laser traps. --Ralphminer 19:30, 19 November 2012 (UTC)