Which cheeses attract which mice?
- Please refer to this disc board post to see the nature of the dilemma:
- This issue has been brought up and discussed before, and I know of two incomplete efforts (User:GoBecky/Sandbox and User:Draobyek). I'm of two minds on it... on one hand, obviously, I personally would find such a resource useful. However, I'm not sure that the Wiki is the place for it - at least not in the main namespace. I feel like it's part of the discovery process of the game, and is more suited to a walkthrough-style resource. Also, the data is already available here - as I was told when I was a newbie editor, the wiki isn't about spoonfeeding information. But I really am torn... particularly in places like Whisker Woods where there's a lot of overlap, it would be helpful to figure out where to go and with which cheese to get the mice you're after. So I don't know. --GoBecky 02:53, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
- I personally have enjoyed your efforts, Becky, for quite a while and would like to suggests 2 improvements for your Lagoon table: both the Black Widow and the Nomad are attracted to Wicked. … A similar problem exists in the Grove b/c there has been quite some fiddling around from the Devs since the launch of MHv3 to the point that some doubt if the Lycan still exists in there and can be attracted to Moon. Anyway: as long as I know where to find such information it can stay on a users 'private' page and doesn't need to be implemented/transferred (in)to the main namespace like it was kinda easy with the Realm. ____m. 13:43, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
- Why thank you for your kind words, _m. -- that's enough to make an editrix blush! ;) Thanks too for the tips on my Lagoon table... the Nomad was just an oversight, and since I hadn't yet nabbed a Black Widow, I wasn't sure if it was Sb+ only. Good to know I should run across some while hunting my remaining 83 Silths, though! :D
- camomiletea suggested (on the forum thread) that we put these tables in the Hunting Strategies/Cheese Usage portions of the relevant locations, which I can definitely get behind. Especially for Whisker, Burroughs, and Bristle, where you have a lot of overlap in mice in the varying locations. Thoughts? Presentation would definitely need to be sorted out. But I think it's a good resolution. --GoBecky 15:03, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
- Haha, those who work hard should be honoured! :))
I can definitely relate to camomiletea's suggestion as this is where it is situated on the above mentioned Realm article. I also agree that presentation is a priority here since legibility is of the essence.
On a sidenote: Race you to the Silth Century despite the fact that you are already 7 ahead of me! … ;]p … ____m. 15:48, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
- Haha, those who work hard should be honoured! :))
- I also very much like the Lagoon table on Becky's page. -- Ralphminer 16:44, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
- I guess the reason this idea hasn't been put up is because we didn't have the data - what cheese attracts what mice, and had to try to find out and compile it. The link that Aaron put in the forum thread (http://furoma.com/horntracker/production/dataviewer/viewdata.php) may be helpful, so we don't have to test each setup, but can use the submitted data on that site. Just spend some time to look up the location and cheese... Not sure if it's all reliable (especially some outliers that I noticed when I put in Gnarled in GGT - in 21287 catches 1 was Frog and 1 was Wiggler; I wouldn't count those :p ) but it seems helpful. -- camomiletea 01:14, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
I've been thinking about possible improvements to the page, and here's what I came up with:
- Firstly, SB+ will be moved to Standard Cheese, which will be renamed Cheese (Standard). It should be classed as standard because it is almost always used in place of the other cheese such as Swiss, Brie, Gouda, etc.
- Then comes the Special Cheese. This will be a section that will hold
- Cheese (potions), and will include all cheese types that can be created using potions, and link to the various potion articles.
- Cheese (crafted), which will link to Crafted cheese.
- Handling of Standard Cheese
Handling of individual cheese pages. All standard cheese information will be merged into this page, except for SB+, which contains a ton of information. Most of it is duplicate information anyways. Redirects will point to the individual cheese which will have div tags.
- Handling of Special Cheese
For the Special Cheese section, each will hold a table that will have 3 columns, namely Cheese Name, In-game Description, and Used In. This way, it will be a summary page of where each cheese should be used. While it would be more logical to redirect all cheese names to this page, most players would be looking for the formula, thus all crafted cheese will continue to point to the respective cheese on the crafted cheese page, except for Ancient
- Handling of Cheese created from potions
As for Potion created cheese, mainly RB and Gnarled, the information should be moved to Radioactive Blue and Gnarled, since both articles are closely related. As for Ancient, the issue has already been somewhat solved by redirecting to Ancient (disambiguation). Many articles now begin with the word Ancient, so that is one good solution. Alternatively, we could treat it the same as with RB and Gnarled, with a statement on the formula pointing to the crafted cheese page, as well as a link to the disambiguation page, since the majority of searches for Ancient should still be on the Cheese.
As there are a number of steps presented here, when replying please be clear which segment is being discussed, thanks :) Oh and if anyone wants to take the changes up once discussion is concluded (or I'm talking to myself), please go ahead. The steps required have been clearly listed here :D -- Grexx 17:17, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
- Regarding the Special Cheese - some cheese, namely Runic and Ancient would be hard to categorize into either (potions) or (crafted) because they can be created using both methods. Unless you mean to put them in twice in both categories? -- Camomiletea 17:24, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oh right, totally missed out Runic as it wasn't listed under the current special cheese. Yes with regards to cheese that can be acquired in both ways, it will be listed as such, possibly with a note stating that it can be acquired by the other means. We'll see how it turns out visually and if it is really necessary, but this will be kept in mind. -- Grexx 17:30, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
I am in the midst of editing the Standard Cheese section, and noticed that Brie can also be converted using potions. However, it will remain solely under the standard cheese section as the definition of special cheese will be those that are specific to 1 or 2 locations. Therefore it will not be listed under the 'Cheese (potions)' section. Ultimately, Brie Alchemy Potions are more of an indirect gift of gold to players. -- Grexx 19:54, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Completed the conversion. I settled on merging the potions and crafted cheese into a single section under 'Cheese (Special)'. Let me know if there are any further improvements that can be made. Not sure how the images should be handled though. Quite useless to put it into its own column in the tables, and not very useful as a list at the bottom. -- Grexx 08:18, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Using this as a temporary holding area for existing images until the page is finished.
-- Grexx 20:30, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
- Aksmet's photobucket account is inactive. could anyone contact him? He has a lot of images on the MHwiki linked to him. --Victor.Songtalk 20:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Plan on reorganizing the way the cheese are laid out as currently it isn't really user friendly since players need to run through the whole long list of cheese before they can find the one they are looking for (especially for those near the bottom). It will be reorganized based on regions, similar to what is currently being used on the Crafted cheese article. Will be doing away with the specific cheese names and retaining region names instead, so that the article retains a broad overview of cheese usage and source for each region, while further details can be followed using existing links once players zoom in on a particular cheese.
Using a simple example, a new player with little idea about cheese would be unlikely to ever chance upon White Cheddar since he currently needs to read through 28 cheese names separated into 2 broad categories (30 lines/mini-sections). Once organized into regions, the maximum he would need to go through is 6 standard cheese and the 2 categories.
Let me know if there's any comments on this, if not I will be proceeding with it in due time. -- Grexx 16:53, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'm all four paws for that, but speaking about White Cheddar - isn't it more related to Harbour then Town of Gnawia or Meadow? After all without going to the Harbour you can't really craft it. --Nux 17:39, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
- Yup, players need to reach a certain location or rank before they have access to a certain type of cheese, but that's not the main purpose of region sectioning. As with Crafted cheese, it is meant to highlight the areas where players can utilise the cheese found under that particular regional section, which is more helpful than just a list. So for example, if players so choose, they could hunt in the Town of Gnawnia with White Cheddar and avoid the red boxes in the Harbour, especially if they didn't use their gold wisely and are short of gold to buy the next trap. -- Grexx 15:09, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Redirects on cheese names
I'd like some feedback on cheese name redirects. At the moment, most if not all the crafted cheese names redirect to their respective Crafted cheese section, ie Moon, Crunchy etc. However that assumes everyone is looking for the crafting formula, which probably isn't the case. Do bear in mind that the previous iteration of the Cheese just had simple Cheese descriptions/usage information.
So what I'm wondering is, would it be better to now redirect to the respective Cheese section instead (ie, Cheese#Moon)? This way all cheese names will be standardized to point to this article, which will serve as a jumping point for the relevant search terms. The furthest a player will be is 2 jumps/links away from the required information, be it where the cheese is acquired, or where it is deployed, or what other related cheese there might be.
Let me know your thoughts on this. There's no rush to this, since players should be used to the current redirects, but I'd like to improve on the landing point of a redirect when possible. -- Grexx 18:22, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
- I am supportive of this change - this page gives a better description and context for the cheese than the current redirects to the crafting formulas. -- Ralphminer 23:23, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
- Completed the switch. This article is now a one-stop information page for all cheese. -- Grexx 03:32, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
I haven't had a good look at the new content yet but one question that comes to mind is, while the cheese can be used in Jungle of Dread, is it even a remotely good idea to use it there? Now what brought this to mind is that the cheese description itself appears to recommend against usage in Jungle of Dread.
The logic for whether a location should be added can be found in one of the earliest specialized cheese, Radioactive Blue. It can be used in the Training Grounds to catch Lycan Mice, but is not listed as such since it is not the main purpose of the cheese.
Can someone please confirm if Vanilla Stilton is not just usable in Jungle of Dread, but actually useful there compared to a specific purpose that would most likely drain a hunter's stock of the cheese for limited returns. -- Grexx 03:34, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't done any real test runs in JoD with Vanilla Stilton, but I have been on a few hunts in the location with that cheese after being swept out of the cove. From my limited experience, Vanilla Stilton attracts Pigmy Swarm mice quite often, if not (almost) always. As such, I suppose a hunter wishing to catch Pigmy Swarm mice could legitimately use Vanilla Stilton in the Jungle and get good results if that is what he or she wished to do.
- Now, whether this is a good strategy is another matter entirely. At the moment, it seems the reason for hunting the Pigmy Swarm mice is to gather Vanilla Beans for use in crafting Vanilla Stilton (or Vengeful Vanilla Stilton). Currently, Pigmy Swarm mice drop no more than one Vanilla Bean each. As such, a hunter using the 15 Vanilla Bean recipe could only hope to break even (and then only if they attracted and caught all 15 mice, each of them dropping a bean). With the Magic Essence recipe requiring 5 beans it is possible that a hunter could turn a Vanilla Bean profit using this strategy, but I have to wonder... Why not simple hunt with SB+? It's just as effective at attracting Pigmy Swarm mice, if not more so. Unless some discrepancy exists between the two in the likelihood of attracting a Sylvan mouse, I fail to see how Vanilla Stilton could be a "better" cheese for the area than Gouda or SB+.
- Still, Vanilla Stilton does attract Pigmy Swarm mice quite well in the Jungle of Dread. If a hunter wished to hunt Pigmy Swarm mice for the pure sake of hunting Pigmy Swarm mice (or, perhaps, for purposes related to a tournament) then it is a viable strategy that would certainly work. It might not help them to progress in the game, but it will get them plenty of Pigmy Swarm mice if that's what they're after.
- I suppose I should concede that I don't feel too strongly either away about including the JoD as a location for Vanilla Stilton. I simply added it earlier because someone on the forums requested the change to be made. If you feel it would be best to remove the location for now then I certainly won't object, but I'm not entirely opposed to its inclusion either. —MearsMan talk 04:18, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- As far as I heard the attraction rates are about (from high to low):
- So to me it seems definitely worse mentioning as a strategy...
- If it yields more Beans than with what the hunter started out with (the above mentioned profit) might be unclear for now (and we have to wait for pooflinger to give us an answer) but doesn't seem important to me in this regard. ____m. 23:35, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- Lol that's a little confusing to me, especially since I haven't gone through the location yet. But I take it that in general, it isn't a useful cheese in JoD since with about 80% attraction rate, hunters will end up with a shortfall of the cheese overall for little value other than getting more of the same base ingredients. Sort of a merry-go-round. And sounds worse than using RB to catch Monster Mice.
- Anyways I'll be removing it as a location until data actually shows it is useful there. As for suggestions on the forums, editors need to be aware that they are typically well intentioned but not always well thought over, so we need to exercise some discretion :) -- Grexx 17:52, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- Geeez, I just realized my bad spelling mistake in my last comment: "worse" should of course have been "worth" … :s … *head<->desk* ____m. 14:50, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
What are other's thoughts on removing the word "Cheese" from the various Gauntlet Cheese names in this article (ex. Gauntlet Tier 3 instead of Gauntlet Cheese Tier 3)? When I checked my hunter's profile I noticed my bait was listed as "Gauntlet Tier 3" with the word "Cheese" removed from the name (I haven't checked but I'm assuming the same applies to all tiers), so it would be using a naming convention that appears in-game, plus it would keep with the style of the other cheeses in the article. Not to mention it would shorten the somewhat lengthy cheese names, arguably improving readability and reducing redundancy (I mean really, it's the cheese article. We know it's talking about cheese). I thought I'd check with the other editors before making the change though, as I suppose "Gauntlet Cheese Tier #" is the "official" name for the cheese and this could be seen as a controversial edit. —MearsMan talk 05:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- Well another solution for that is to rename the column header from "Cheese" to "Gauntlet Cheese", and retain the Tier labelling. So the only words that appear in the columns would be Tier 2, Tier 3, Tier 4 etc. Of course that's assuming they don't come out with different named cheese in the same location in future. In any case it would look fine to me both ways. I've tried out a preview without the word "cheese" and it fits nicely into a single line. -- Grexx 12:15, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Thoughts on adding Marketplace as a source for SB+, Maki and Moon since we're now able to buy these cheeses directly from other players? Also, what about adding Loot to SB+ (I know Black Widows drop it along with some of the Event Mice)? —MearsMan talk 23:17, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- Adding Marketplace is a good idea.
- As far as adding Loot for SB+, I don't think so. It's already mentioned in the summary before the table that these types of cheese can be found as loot. It's not a reliable way to obtain those types of cheese, which is why we didn't put it in when the article was created. I mean are you going to go hunt in the Meadow in order to obtain some Marble? How do you plan to hunt for Black Widow to obtain some SB+? ;)
- One thing that I'm trying to remember, is Gouda dropped anywhere as loot? If it's not, we need to mention the exception in that paragraph ("except Gouda") -- camomiletea 23:32, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- You make a good point with your reasoning behind keeping Loot out. I overlooked the mention of loot drops in the summary before, but I now agree that it's a much better way of handling the matter. As far as Gouda goes, I can't think of anything that drops it either. I also checked the Loot article and there's no mention of it there (although of course that article could be out of date).
- I'll go ahead and add the Marketplace source for now and wait to see if anyone else comments about the Gouda loot drop issue. —MearsMan talk 00:18, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
I don't have the pots to do all the research, but under Brie it mentions pots that use it in their process, and a few of the Gauntlet pots could probably stand to be added here. I'll do the research myself some time tomorrow if I remember/no one beats me to it. Aryst0krat 06:11, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Cheese is now available in the Meadow
Page could be updated with locations of Meadow cheeses -- Ralphminer 13:01, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
I noticed the recent edits regarding RB, Gnarled and Wicked Gnarly being dropped as loot. I would agree with ericb that it should be mentioned. Missing in this list is Limelight. Not sure if it also needs mentioning with SB+ in the Standard cheese section. ____m. 07:41, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- The reason they are not included is mentioned in the intro section: "While some cheese are directly available as loot from mice, it is neither consistent nor in useful amounts, hence their exclusion here." The idea is that if you want to collect the cheese in a useful amount, you would not be sitting around waiting for a Black Widow to come by and give it to you. It's not consistent (Black Widows are rare), and the amounts are insignificant. Same with BBB dropping Limelight. For one, you actually have to be using Limelight already to get him, two the mouse is hard to catch and again amount is not significant. The only cheese that is listed as loot are those varieties that are only obtainable from loot, e.g. Gilded, Rockforth, and for those the drop is (or was) more or less consistent, and you can obtain sizable amounts. We can change the policy; I'm just trying to explain the reasoning why it was setup this way from the start. If we do this, we'll need to update the introductory sections too, to get rid of those sentences. -- camomiletea 04:34, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for your answer. I understand the issue at hand and will ponder about it. Will let you know what I think would be best. ____m. 12:05, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Looks like tinypic just deleted a bunch of images; I noticed it here first (for example, Cherry Cheese), but there are probably many other tinypic images throughout the wiki that no longer have valid content, for which we'll need new URLs hosted on some other location. --04:12, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Clarification needs clarification
Current wording: "The market price of cheese stolen tends to match the amount of gold typically stolen by that breed of mice. Mice are capable of stealing any of the "standard" cheeses listed below except SUPER|brie+, but do not generally steal any of the "special" cheeses listed below, with the known exceptions of Moon cheese, White Cheddar, and Mozzarella." The way this sounds is that mice do steal Moon, White Cheddar and Mozarella (but generally don't steal the rest of the special cheese), when the opposite was meant, I'm sure. -- camomiletea 20:00, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
- I vaguely remember people complaining about Moon being stolen when it first came out, and considering the exception list I wouldn't be surprised if those cheese are indeed steal-able. I would hope that the other special cheeses cannot be stolen. --Hyperchao 01:27, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
- Moon, White Cheddar, and Mozzarella can be stolen, other special cheeses cannot. aaronmil 05:47, 13 June 2011 (UTC)