Talk:Crafting

PLEASE NOTE: The MouseHunt Kitchen group on Facebook is specifically dedicated to discovering new recipes. You may have better success searching there first for new formulas and discussion of same.

Removal of credits

Because credits have been removed, noobs now believe that the recipes were simply copied from Plankrun's journal. There have been postings to this effect in the forums.

I understand why they were removed, but now anyone reading the wiki has no idea at all that MH players actually found these recipes through hard work.

Who cares? This isn't the MH Hall of Fame. -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 14:00, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Newcomers will always be newcomers :) You can't fault them for not knowing. Those who have played through the times when the formulas were just released would know. Additionally, I find that putting a name on the formula is highly inaccurate since most of the people playing around with the formula would have posted up their failed tries, which in turn was built on by those who eventually succeeded. Also, some of the formulas were literally written on the item descriptions. -- Grexx 15:02, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Missed point error. The point is not who found the recipes, but that they were found at all. Newcomers to the game are unaware of the hours of work put in by people to find these recipes. That matters because they are therefore completely unaware that potentially they can make a contribution to finding future recipes. Instead they believe they are going to be handed to them on a plate.

Didn't miss the point. The real point is that the formulas are all found within hours, or at most a day or two, of them becoming available for discovery. The VAST VAST VAST majority of MHers do in fact have it handed to them on a plate. That the formulas have to be discovered at all is a trivial part of the game, a momentary challenge at best. If you can come up with a sentence or two to describe what you think is important for players to know, by all means add it to the page. Personally I don't see the necessity but understand your concern (though I truly question the "hard work" aspect -- it's simple trial and error based on obvious hints). -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 16:59, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

we could make a credit page on the side and place names on there Doreito 17:32, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

In reply to Brossow, not all recipes were handed to MHers on a plate. Ancient Cheese was languished upon for literally days before Jason discovered it. --Shinnok 05:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Shinnok, I believe Brossow was referring to the fact that most players don't contribute at all to the efforts to find formulas, and are simply waiting for it to be handed out to them.

Anyways, whatever the point, it can certainly be included in a writeup for the Crafting page. The page is missing a nice introduction on crafting and what players can do with it. Any takers for the job? -- Grexx 06:32, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Splintered Wood

I would like to see Splintered Wood have it's own component page. Other crafting components have their own page and their is more information about Splintered Wood (multiple mouse drops in multiple locations) so I think there is enough information to justify it's own page.

I would say all crafting items should have their own page, if only because it makes it much easier for people to find them when searching the wiki. --Winelight 19:53, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree about the Splintered Wood. Not so much about all the crafting stuff, though. They used to be all their own articles, but there was hardly any information in them. Not worth the page... But as far as Splintered Wood, yeah - it's got enough info that it deserves a separate page. -- Camomiletea 20:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Obelisk Parts description?

Does it really say "ordinate" instead of "ornate"? I'm not gonna smash my OoS (not yet, anyway) just to find out. Wondering if it's an error by the devs or a transcription error. -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 20:30, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I can confirm that it really does say "ordinate" instead of "ornate". It's probably a mistake by the devs. -- Townsend 06:00, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Reducing duplicated info

Just looking to start some brainstorming on a way to reduce the amount of duplicated info on the wiki, particularly with regard to this page and General Store, which have TONS of identical info. Thoughts? Ideas? -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 22:18, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Lol have been avoiding messing with these 2 pages precisely because of this reason. The information is in need of a merge from the looks of it. The hard part is deciding what's going to end up where. For a start the item description needs to go from one of the pages. That's probably a good place to start working on where to divide the information, or possibly a complete merger of the 2 pages.

Or we can consider removing the "description" and "used in" columns from the general store page, so it'll simply contain pricing information, or possibly split the page up and make it a disambiguation page, and point the individual general store pages to their respective locations. -- Grexx 15:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

We still need additional input on this matter. It is getting more and more urgent with more and more stuff coming into the game. Maintaining 2 articles with almost the same content is a very bad idea -- Grexx 15:16, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Strip down General Store as you indicated above — basic list of what's found in each location and cost. No description, no fancy formatting. Just a basic list of what's available in each GS with a "See also" pointing to the Crafting page. For most things in the wiki, I see absolutely no reason to duplicate info when a simple link will suffice. Duplicated info = more work to maintain, virtually no benefit to people looking for info. -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 15:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

It's going to need a lot of work and I won't be able to spare the time to do this. If anyone has the time feel free to take over. I will list down the steps needed to make the changes:

1. Change all current ingredients that are pointing to General Store to redirect to Crafting, for example Bead of Slumber.
2. Remove the links in the Crafting article to avoid the now circular redirects.
3. Create the ingredient links (link names and not directly to crafting) in the General Store article, which will redirect to Crafting
4. Check that all entries currently in the General Store article have been included in the Crafting article.
5. Remove the "description" and "used in" columns from General Store.
6. Remove colors from General Store tables except perhaps for the headers.

And that should do it. -- Grexx 17:43, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

For task 1, the list of articles that redirect to General Store: Splintered Wood, Ionized Salt, Paint-brand Paint, Cheesy Fluffs, Invisi-glu, Burroughs Salmon, Nori, Salt, Curds and Whey, Rice Paper, Droid Parts, Bead of Slumber. I can start on this. -- Camomiletea 17:53, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I just killed the desc and use columns on the GS page. That's about all the time I have to give right now. -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 18:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

All but #4 appear done. -- Camomiletea 18:14, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I checked the entries and added some missing "Used in" info. This is now done. -- Camomiletea 18:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Items without pages or direct links

Ok, so I'm coming at this as a player (98% GM atm) who doesn't know all of this stuff already. I was just poking around, thinking to myself, "So I build my Ambsh, catch my Mojo... then what?" So I wound up on the ACRONYM page (lnked from Catacombs, I believe), and saw that I would need Obelisk Parts. Clicked that link, and... FAIL. It just drops you at the top of the Crafting page. Eventually I found what I was looking for -- waaay at the bottom of the page -- but it was really frustrating, as I didn't know what section to even look in. A wiki link should take the user directly to the information they're looking for.

And it's not just the Obelisk Parts that have this problem on this page.

So: I'm personally of the opinion that created crafting items are complex enough to have their own pages, but that's neither here nor there. For the time being, how can we make it so that when a user clicks a link for a crafting item that brings them to this page, it at least brings them to the general area of the item they're looking for, not just the top of the page? --GoBecky 02:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Well that's an issue that needs looking into. The crafting article is presently not well organized due to its wide scope, but putting the ingredients into separate pages doesn't work well as there's very little information on each individual item. A workaround on the issue would be redirecting to the section in question, but we'll need more feedback on how better to organize the article. I'll get to the redirect later when I have the time :) -- Grexx 07:36, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Fixed the link for now....
@Becky: you can easily do this yourself in the future -- just click the link from the table of contents to the section the required item is listed in and then from the address line of your browser copy the whole text string after the last forward slash >/< for use in the wiki link you like to improve. _____m. 08:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The many uses of Salt

The description of Salt says it's used in a variety of flavours of cheese, yet so far I've only found the one. Does anyone know of other flavours of cheese that are not mentioned in this table? -- austin 14:33, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Table template

The alternating colors for rows in the tables are a nice effect but make it difficult to add new items (lots of new loot to add to the dropped crafting items section) or reorder. For those of you good at creating templates, is it possible to have the colors auto generated so that editors do not have to worry about maintaining a correct sequence? --Hyperchao 07:22, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Some template function (logic) on this wiki engine is not installed. That's why we can not put some 'logic' to auto generate color. On the other hand, it makes wiki faster (I believe) and lighter for CPU and memory usage.

I agree to remove some fancy layout, such as coloring, make the writing easier and increase accessibility (color blind). just my 2 cents. Pus 12:04, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

- I wouldn't be too concerned with colour blind readers - I'm colour-blind and find no real difficulties as of yet. austin 13:25, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I rather like the alternating colors in this table at least because some of the cells are so big, it would be hard to see where they end without the zebra effect... I wish it were possible to automate it, though. -- Camomiletea 19:34, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Adjustments of redirect linking

Planning on adjusting the way the articles link to make it easier to find the correct entry. Using a similar "div id" style as in the Mice article, all crafting items will now be enclosed in a <div id="Example">Example</div> tag. So for example, when searching for Bolt of Cloth, the page will redirect to "Crafting#Bolt of Cloth" instead of "Crafting#Dropped crafting items". This should aid the navigation into and out of the page. This will probably be extended to any other pages that need it, as they are identified. -- Grexx 10:44, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Something that I missed out, small articles containing little info other than the item description will also be converted to redirects that will point back to the Crafting article. -- Grexx 11:00, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Completed first round of edits to redirects. The remaining ones require more careful cleanup and consolidation as they contain some minor info. Not sure when I will get the spare time again though, so if anyone else can pick it up that'll be great. -- Grexx 17:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup of Crafting article

The page is getting too large and unwieldy. Some parts may need to be split off into separate articles. We need some suggestions on how to resolve this. The issue has been put off for a little too long now. This page is well visited and needs a better way of organization so that the information can be easily found. Haven't put too much thought into this as yet, so tossing a few ideas that come to mind at the moment. We can split the crafting article into crafting items and crafted items. Also thinking of merging the General store items, dropped crafting items, and created crafting items into one table, similar to the Mice page, with a generic "Source" column to consolidate the various sources. Alternatively, they can be organized along the lines of categories, such as Cheese, Traps, Blueprints etc. Comments? -- Grexx 17:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Splitting article into Crated items and crafting items seems like a good idea. I suppose the information on crafting slots will remain here and be separate from those other two. It will be a short article, but it does make sense that the mechanics of crafting is covered separately from all the lists of ingredients and the lists of items that may be crafted.

Consolidating into one table - I like that too, because there are items that go into several places (Splintered Wood is both in General Store and dropped).

Cheese, Traps, Blueprints categories won't work. Case in point: Splintered Wood (again) used in cheese (Combat), trap components (Ambush, Obelisk of Incineration, Dehydration Base), and map (Ship). -- Camomiletea 17:42, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

My suggestion on how to reogranize this is to break this into five pages. The first page is a general page on crafting - it contains the current section on available slots and provides a link to the existing Crafterd Cheese page and a list of the traps that may be crafted. The Crafted Cheese page and the individual trap pages have the crafting formulas as they do today. The crafting items are divided between three pages and can be navigated to from links in the formulas. The three pages would be Crafting Items Purchased, Crafting Items Dropped as Loot, and Crafting Items that are Crafted. For Crafting Items Purchaed you want to know where can I buy this item, for Crafting Items Dropped as Loot you want to know which locations provide this loot, and for Crafting Items that are Crafted you want the formula. For items like Splintered Wood that can be dropped as loot or purchased - they can have their own page. -- Ralphminer 17:50, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd prefer that there is a complete list of all ingredients on one page somewhere. As long as there's this kind of Master list, you can break off the pages with descriptions and stuff in more pieces (e.g. crafting items purchased, crafting items dropped), but a master list is a good thing too. -- Camomiletea 18:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay - I see the value of having a master list - I suggest it have four columns - the item, the description, what it used in, and a location. The location would be the place where it can be bought, or where it can be found as loot. For crafted items, it would be the location of the item it is crafted from. -- Ralphminer 03:44, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments welcomed on Crafting Items -- Ralphminer 00:21, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Just saw the page while going through the list of long pages. I think this is a good format to put it. It is just missing a good introduction, a list of IDs for the alphabets similar to the Mice article, double checking that loot/purchase items are reflected correctly (ie Splintered Wood), a related links section, and some minor formatting adjustments and it should be ready.

Additionally, the crafting article also needs a proper writeup after the split. Right now it is not informative enough. It is more of a listing of every crafting item. A brief discussion on the various type of crafted and crafting items and the general things to look out for etc, would be nice. -- Grexx 16:49, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

It seems that we are losing some valuable information on that page, specifically the list of mice for the dropped crafting items. For these, it is not enough to just list a location - who drops the item is important, in my opinion. What is the plan to preserve this info? We could again put up a bunch of short articles that would contain the information, but that would be kind of going backwards... -- Camomiletea 02:47, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I guess it does make sense after all. The info on what mouse drops the item would be just a click away on the Location page. And that also prevents some duplication of info. However, it's still somewhat confusing to me... Because if you just link to the location article for the General Store items, there is no further info within the article about them. Maybe the link should go instead to the General Store and the location section. And the links for the dropped loot perhaps should go to the Location Mice section... And for the created crafting items, maybe the "Any" should link to Hunter's Hammer. Or something. -- Camomiletea 03:24, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Never noticed that the mice information was missing. Camomiletea is correct in that it needs to point to a more precise page. I think the location column should be renamed as "Source". So for an item like Splintered Wood, which can both be found as a loot drop and bought in shops, it should list briefly, that it drops from Dwarf, Worker, Treant, and Hydra. As for the shop purchasable, it can be something like Training Grounds GS, short for General Store, and link to the correct General Store. Specific loot drop locations will not be listed, since that can be easily found by following the respective mice links. As for crafting items, it should just state clearly that it is a crafted item. A simple "Crafted" should suffice. This should cover the issue raised by Camomiletea. -- Grexx 08:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I have updated the location column to call out General Store items. However I find it more helpful to know where I need to go to hunt to find the crafting items than the particular mice that drop them - since mice do not drop the same loot in all locations. I like the idea of changing "Any" to "Crafted" and will do that edit in the future. ---- Ralphminer 10:56, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Crafting Items page needs a number of updates. I was making some changes to the Crafting page this week, adding missing ingredients, adding additional info to created crafting items, changing description of Onyx Stone, etc. See History. The same updates need to be done to Crafting Items. It is confusing having two places to work on... -- Camomiletea 19:06, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Crafting Items should be more or less done up now. I'll be doing the switchover in a while, and we will work backwards on Crafting history to fit in any of the changes made. -- Grexx 19:18, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Finished the switchover. Probably still some odds and ends here and there to clear up. If there's any issue with any of the edits do let me know. Some of the edits might not have been discussed here, and were implemented to get the page going, and might not necessarily be the most ideal choice. -- Grexx 21:26, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Rank affects crafting success?

Where in the world did we get this from? To my knowledge that's never been stated, and there's no evidence of the fail rate going down based upon watching GMs try to craft the Ambush. --Kirbix 14:35, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

It is merely because as you progress through ranks, you get more safe slots. If you don't have to use a red slot, your success rate goes up to 100%. It's probably poorly worded; I don't think it tries to say what you think it does. -- Camomiletea 14:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I reworded that section a bit. Hopefully it is clearer now. Feel free to tweak. -- Camomiletea 15:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Poorly thought out loot/item pages

A number of edits by Kalinatir a couple months back on Gnarled‎, White Cheddar, Salt, Curds and Whey, Ancient (cheese)‎, MH toolbar‎, require a good amount of cleanup. They are poorly worded (some have had some touch-up from editors already), are complete duplicates of what is already contained elsewhere, and are once again, incomplete work. Gnarled, White Cheddar, Salt, Curds and Whey, Ancient (cheese), Ancient, will all be converted to redirects to the proper consolidated pages until a better solution can be found. Template:Cheese, Template:Object will be put up for deletion, and MH toolbar‎ really needs some attention. -- Grexx 14:01, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Hear hear. -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 14:17, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Dealt with Salt, Curds and Whey, but have yet to clean up the other pages as there are some underlying issues that need to be resolved for the cheese articles, mainly regarding where to point to and what information goes where. -- Grexx 16:47, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Available Slots

Wondering if it will be feasible to include the whole list of items that can be crafted safely by each rank. That could be very informative if linked in from the right articles. It will give each rank a quick and clear idea of what exactly they can craft. This is especially so if we are moving crafting items into its own page, by helping to put more useful content on the crafting article. However one drawback of this is that it is a partial duplicate of information from the various crafting items, but I could live with that as the crafting ingredients have not seen any major changes. For items that require a minimum point, such as weapons and bases, they can be included under the first rank when players are expected to be able to craft them. So for example, Runic cheese will be included under Legendary crafting rather than Master or Grandmaster. Let me know your thoughts on this. -- Grexx 17:31, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure this makes sense - wouldn't it be easier to list the things that can't be safely crafted when first available? There's very few of those (WC, dehydration base, ambush, ABT, and one recipe each for ship and rumble are the only ones I'm aware of). -- Pakaran 14:36, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Makes some sense there, but I was thinking along the lines of the current laundry list of items, and properly categorizing them. If we just list those that can't be safely crafted, it wouldn't cover everything. One solution to this is to also have another column or area talking about that, for the more risk taking players, along with a general warning and recommendation. That might work. -- Grexx 14:54, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Example Table

Rank	Total Slots	Safe Crafting	Red Slot Crafting
Apprentice	2		White_Cheddar
Journeyman	3	White_Cheddar	SUPER|brie+
Master	4	Moon SUPER|brie+
Grandmaster	5	Ancient (3 pc) Ancient (6 pc) Combat Glutter Maki Rumble (1 pc) Susheese	Rumble (3 pc)
Legendary	6	Creamy Havarti Crunchy (15 pc) Crunchy (20 pc) Crunchy Havarti Gumbo (15 pc) Gumbo (20 pc) Magical Havarti Pungent Havarti Rumble (3 pc) Runic (1 pc) Runic (2 pc) Shell (15 pc) Shell (20 pc) Spicy Havarti Sweet Havarti
Hero	7
Knight	8
Lord/Lady	9
Baron/Baroness	10

The guidelines I'm following for classification:

1. Look at how many slots are needed, classify under safe crafting column
2. Check the ingredients and the minimum rank that can access them, and reclassify according to the rank of the most difficult to acquire ingredient if it is higher than rank in step 1
3. Check rank below the current if it is able to craft the item. If yes, also include the item under red slot crafting for that rank.

-- Grexx 13:50, 12 September 2009 (UTC)