Talk:Mice

Archives:

1. Link to old archive – Discussions on the following: Bait Preference, Mouse Info Template, Mouse Difficulty Ratings, Sortable Table, Old mice need new facelift?, History and Trivia sections.

Consistency Issues

I've noticed some problems with keeping the Mouse information consistent because there are many pages that need to be updated each time with the same data when something needs to be changed. For example, the Steel Mouse that I had some trouble with earlier was shown on Steel Mouse and The Mice pages to not reside in the Meadow. However on checking Meadow page, it was shown (correctly?) to be so. If anyone can come up with a solution to this issue it would be great. -- Grexx 07:18, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

The easiest and probably most sensible solution is to only place the data in a single place: on each mouse's individual page. An alternative that would take a minor bit of coding and a more significant amount of editor education and monitoring -- and ultimately still might not look very good -- would be to make this page a series of transclusions. If the individual mice pages were formatted consistently and the infoboxes were kept inside a <noinclude> tag so they weren't being included on the page, this idea might work. I'm not in favor of it for various reasons, but it's a possibility I might be able to live with. I think the best idea is to eliminate the two middle columns (Location & Pref. Bait) from the existing table as that info can easily be found (and easily maintained) on each mouse's page. I think if this were done, it would eliminate the need to separate the prize mice as suggested in a different comment, which I would object to on the grounds that someone looking for a Leprechaun mouse in the list may not necessarily know that it is a prize mouse and thus be confused or frustrated when they can't easily find it. Sorry for the novella. -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 07:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Can players give some feedback on this? What are you looking for in this page? Or is it just a springboard for you to find the Mouse you want, in which case you should probably type in the short name into the search bar :) Let us know your thoughts about this page so that we can improve it. In my opinion, the mouse description is unnecessary and adds too much bulk to the page. -- Grexx 11:05, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I've been using it to determine where to hunt for particular mice, but now there's Cheat Sheet for that purpose. Camomiletea 16:54, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

For a start on cleaning up the page, I'll be removing the Mice Descriptions. Doubt most players come here for the description. It'll help to cut down on the page size and loading needed. -- Grexx 15:39, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I kinda liked having the descriptions, but I agree that it's not the main reason people would come by this page to look at. Perhaps the more important bit of information would be the power type of these mice. I think it fits nicely here with information on where to find them, their cheese preferences and then also power types - all important hunting information. Camomiletea 00:26, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Did a quick conversion from the in-game text to power types. Always open to ideas for further improvement on the page. -- Grexx 13:23, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I've recently been using the page to quickly compare the point and gold values for mice. When i first started, i used the page to figure out the names of the mice that were just question marks. This is why I also think it is important to have a page where they are listed in the order of the All Mice page.-- Jimmy 00:52, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

As per my reply to Camomiletea on table width in Talk:Mice#Table Width, I don't see the reason for having the points and gold column here because making a direct comparison between all mice and gold/points doesn't serve any useful purpose and raises the page size and loading times.

As for the shadows, you can design a mini table with the list of mice as laid out in the in-game display, but it will take some work to maintain each time new mice are added since they sometimes slot weaker mice in early, like the Hapless. It can then either be in the Cheat Sheet, Mice article, or in a new page of it's own if it really needed. -- Grexx 07:02, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Mouse Loot Drop Frequency

I've noticed that Dave actually added the frequency of loot drops for the various mice (less the more recent forgotten types, quick random example here). I found that to be extremely useful information. Unfortunately, it seems that all that information has been lost in successive edits. I'd like for editors to assist in recovering that information and putting it back into the respective mouse page. Please maintain a completed task list here so that we can avoid duplicating each others' work.

Thus far, I've gone through the history of:

• Dwarf Mouse (History has been thoroughly checked) -- 14:55, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
• Abominable Snow Mouse (No edits by Dave, also thoroughly checked for any lost information) -- 14:55, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
• Archer Mouse (No edits by Dave, checked for lost info) -- 19:26, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Editors are advised to look through Dave Vanderburg's edits or the respective mouse page history. Please be aware that Dave is a Developer of MouseHunt so we assume that all information provided by him is correct. -- Grexx 15:05, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Here's a link to Dave's contributions, in case it helps: Special:Contributions/Dave Vanderburg. -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 15:50, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Just looked at the example you added and it appears that the loot info wasn't completely lost, simply moved to the infobox. Frequency is indeed missing, however. -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 16:10, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Yup it's the frequency info I was referring to. Its invaluable information that Dave has released into the wiki that I'm surprised it was all edited out. We all know how tight they are with revealing certain aspects of gameplay too. I was looking for relevant info regarding the Gnawnia Pages in the Dwarf pages and chanced upon that, and started looking around the other mice and noticed the loss of information. -- Grexx 16:28, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I added drop frequencies for Black Widow, Hollowhead, Zombie, White and Vampire based on Dave's edits.Camomiletea 21:52, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Added drop frequencies for Steel, Ninja and Monster. Camomiletea 05:21, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Added drop frequencies for Granite, Bionic and Mole mice. Camomiletea 05:58, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Ditto Lycan Mouse. Camomiletea 06:24, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Ditto Burglar Mouse. Camomiletea 14:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Ditto Grey and Brown. Camomiletea 06:36, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok I've gone through all remaining pages using the A-Z on the Mice page. Only edit left was to the Mummy Mouse. The task is considered complete. Thanks for the help again Camomiletea :) -- Grexx 13:32, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Note of Caution

Fellow editors, when adding information about loot drops, please avoid any terms that are specific about the drop frequency. The only frequency information that is correct are those added by the Developers. For all other drops without frequency info, a simple "Mouse may drop loot" format will do. A good example of this is the Radioactive Blue Cheese Curd Potion page. No frequency information is available for corrupted potions, and thus excluded.

Please also assist in checking that casual editors do not inadvertently add frequency information in either, thanks! -- Grexx 11:26, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Prize Mice

I think we need to mention this, but I'm not sure where. The Devs mentioned recently that only one prize mouse can be caught every 30 days. --Navarr 20:21, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I put it in this article for now. It would be nice to have an article dedicated to prize mice. -- Camomiletea 20:43, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

This doesn't appear to be accurate, as I've seen someone's profile which showed two Mobsters caught within a few hunts. The dev did put in a disclaimer "Don't hold me to it" when speaking of the limitation... -- Camomiletea 02:48, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Table Width

With the two new columns of Max Points and Min Gold, the table is too wide. Could we let those two heading wrap to reduce the width? Any other suggestions? -- Camomiletea 02:39, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

To be honest I don't see any need for those 2 columns at all. Not much use comparing all the points and gold of all the mice. The way the game is laid out, the important thing to look out for is the location. The balance for the gold and points is actually in the percentage of the mice in a location. I'm waiting for a good reason to keep them, if not I'll be removing them in due time. -- Grexx 06:40, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I personally think that those 2 columns are pretty much the only chance any MHer will ever have to compare those 2 important stats off all mice in the game - up-to-date !!!!
So I would be rather sad to see it go. Just my 0,02€ (;]) _____m. 08:52, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Although it is pretty nifty to be able to compare the points and gold rewards of all mice, it is also rather pointless since there's just no way they'll ever see those mice in a single in-game location anyway. Unless the developers suddenly try to make an alternate dimension where hunters can catch all kinds of mice. But that's just crazy talk. :D --Mikeyco 09:00, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes it's the only chance players get to compare all the stats for all the mice, but all for no particular reason except because they can :P I'm looking at how useful it is putting the information together, and nothing clicks in my head as to how anyone can find it useful. -- Grexx 09:17, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Have to agree with you two: there is no such dimension/location and we usually don't do just "'coz!".... but if someone (or maybe just me ;]) tries to decide where to hunt for points or gold or both it would be useful - or am I mistake there too? _____m. 09:48, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it helps even when you want to decide where to look for the best place to earn gold. For example, the Pirate mouse and Zombie mouse are one of the first mice you'll encounter that give gold more than a thousand. However, you'll hardly encounter them anyway in those locations. It's better to look for the general income a location can give because it gives you a more realistic outcome, especially since it takes into consideration all the mice that can be found there rather than focusing on a specific breed. The only possible exception to this are the Master mice. Also, it's in the general opinion that the best place to earn gold is either in the Mousoleum or in the Catacombs, albeit both being high-risk. --Mikeyco 10:00, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually even the Masters require a long buildup of loot in the Dojo, so again there is absolutely no benefit to looking at the gold and points in a master list like this. And the best easiest place to earn gold is the Lab+Catacombs at the moment. Unless you're lugging around 5000 stale cheese :D (as most newbies would have eventually) -- Grexx 16:15, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, what I meant by the Master mice being the exception is because they're pretty much the only mice in their respective locations, pushing aside Hapless mice. :D --Mikeyco 16:24, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any point adding 2 columns (Point/Gold). Because reader can go to each mouse to get the information. Secondly, we need extra editing when there is a change or new mouse. Currently we need to edit the gold/point stats on two page. 1) Location and 2) Mouse info. If we adding gold/point info on Mice page, it gives extra page to maintain the consistency. Btw, it's cool to have all info on 1 page :) Pus 16:56, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I actually just came to this page hoping to see comparisons of points and gold for each mouse. I was a little sad to see this thread which removed them. Any chance we can get that information put back in? For context, I was curious about the relationship between the mice in the various tribal isles locations. I only put together yesterday how un-valuable the Uleb show mice were. Of course indicate that the Derr dunes is always going to make you more money ... but I come to the Wiki out of curiosity as much as anything else. If we are concerned that not everyone would understand this, we could pull some of the comments out of this discussion and add them to the main page, similar to discussion on travel costs on that page. --Pursuit 15:07, 08 Aug 2009 (UTC)

Loot drop amounts

Referring to the discussion on Talk:Beast Tamer Mouse regarding adding loot drops values, I am strongly against the idea to document the number of loot items that a mouse can drop as it hardly presents the full picture, mentioned by User:Kkoliver as a factor on where to hunt. Firstly, the number of loot a mouse drops is but one aspect. Other things that need to be considered include currently owned traps, rank (and thus location access), mouse population percentages, catch frequency, drop frequency, and adjustments by the developers.

With so many factors, if only 1 factor is presented, that is going to greatly mislead players as to which location to hunt. Scrap Metal is a prime example. When it first came out, it was an extremely difficult drop to get. As the game progressed, the developers adjusted the drop rates higher, probably to speed up the game. They also recently introduced Terror Knights that also drop Scrap Metal. To have players keep the information updated is impossible without developer feedback, and they have been quite tight lipped on these exact game mechanics and numbers. Thus it will fall on players to maintain, and this is an item aspect that has a high chance of becoming inaccurate due to lack of updating since it is an often overlooked portion of the game.

Moreover it becomes very difficult for players to prove or disprove a particular number if it has changed, since newer players usually will not have access to older figures and older players do not hunt in those locations any more.

What it boils down to is the number of things in which accuracy needs to be maintained, and other than being misleading, it is extremely difficult to maintain any high degree of accuracy due to possible developer tweaks and changes. Previous experience has shown that even if numbers remain constant, the frequency of drop has seen a good number of changes, most likely for game balance.

Additionally, for the majority of items in-game, there are only 1 or 2 locations to gather the required materials. Thus it would be better covered under the hunting strategy for the respective location, than as an obscure entry marking the range of drops a mouse can have.

I will be removing all drop numbers in a couple of days unless someone can present a good solution to the issue. And follow up on it! Which brings up another issue. If anyone is suggesting a relatively major change to the way information is going to be presented on the MH Wiki, on top of getting general agreement on the changes, please also make sure you are able to follow through with the work, instead of leaving it half-done on 10% of the total number of related articles and expect others to fill in the information. This tends to result in the existence of non-uniform pages in most of the time, since no one else wants to pick up the project/changes. This is especially relevant to articles which have a consistent feel maintained.

-- Grexx 14:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I do see the problem. For example, we say that runes are dropped both in the FG and the AR. This is true, but in 1,000 runic hunts I had just one rune dropped in the AR. But as you say, that can be covered in the hunting strategy. --Winelight 06:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I understand that developers may occaisionaly tweak things - but I think that the number of rsnge of loot drops is good information that people are interested in. I agree that this change should be made all at once - but that is not a reason to move forward with a loot drop project. -- Ralphminer 12:08, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Special Event

Someone has listed the Frozen and Frosty Snow mice as "Special Event" mice, but I'm not sure how accurate this is and if it should be mentioned. Both mice are listed under "Physical" on the all mice page and aren't with the other rare breeds that are part of the event. The devs have not mentioned how long these mice will remain in the game or stated that they will be removed after the Festive Comet event is over, so I'm uneasy seeing them described as "Special Event" mice. For all we know this could be a repeat of last year's Abominable Snow Mouse, with the mice being introduced during the winter event but remaining a permanently catchable fixture in the game. What are other people's thoughts on this? I'm going to err on the side of caution and remove the "Special Event" description for now until I see some consensus for its inclusion. —MearsMan ^talk 07:18, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

I think it's fine either ways. Until such a time when information is available that they will be introduced into other locations, they remain special event mice as they are only available during The Great Winter Hunt '09. That is the extent of everyone's knowledge at the moment. While they aren't considered rare breeds, only the developers know for sure if the mice are going to be around after the holiday season. -- Grexx 07:23, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Considering both mice counted towards the normal breeds caught count, I suspect they will stay after the event. --Hyperchao 01:06, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Bait Preference

Like to start a discussion regarding bait preference. Would like to get opinions on whether it would be better to switch to mentioning the different cheese types that a mouse is attracted to. This will include mentioning standard cheese such as Swiss, Brie, Marble, and Cheddar, which will be grouped together. The current practice is that there is an unmentioned component within all bait preference infoboxes, with the assumption that all mice are attracted to standard cheese unless otherwise specified. For the most part this works fine. However, looking at some of the responses towards the Shelder Mouse article, it is clear that some players don't grasp this notion at all, or somehow read specific articles differently from the other similar articles. This has led to some confusion since there are different interpretations of the text.

Including all bait preferences of a reasonable degree should be a good start. For example, that Nibbler can be attracted extremely rarely by standard cheese will not be mentioned, but that Shelder mice are attracted to SB+ and Gouda especially, while somewhat partial to Standard cheese should be mentioned. That leaves some grey areas for Black Widow for example, since it is attracted by standard cheese rarely, and only somewhat less rarely by SB+. Let me know your thoughts on this. There's no rush to change this though, since for the most part it has been working fine.

In general, the change in the articles will be that most physical mice such as the White Mouse will include a simple phrase such as 'White mice are attracted to standard cheese such as Swiss and Brie' and the infoboxes will include the link 'Standard Cheese' and link to Cheese#Cheese (Standard). Will need to check for any exceptions though, and consider how they should be worded. -- Grexx 10:38, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I am okay with this since we are having more mice that require special cheeses. Do we mention the mice that are attracted to White Cheddar? If we just say Standard Cheeses - is that confusing to new hunters? Is it misleading to say that White Mice are attracted to standard cheese such as Cheddar, Marble, Swiss and Brie when most guides do not recommend using Swiss and Brie in the Town of Gnawnia and Meadow since you are losing money on each hunt. Also I would encourage to mention the mice that are attracted by SB+ since many hunters get confused by being attracted to a cheese and having a special preference for a type of cheese. -- Ralphminer 10:58, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Chart updates needed for v3

As of the writing of this note, the big chart o' mice still contains "Power Type" as one of the columns. Since explicit mouse power types were done away with in v3, IMO this column should be changed to "Mouse Group" (I suspect this won't be controversial, since new mice are already being listed with their group in this field).

I'll volunteer to do this job.

However, I'll admit to still being a bit unclear as to how Mouse Groups and Power Types interface; that is, are all mice in a given group equally weak to all the power types listed in-game? Except we know this isn't the case; Balack is weak to Forgotten only, for example. So…. this is what I propose: I will change "Power Type" to "Mouse Group" and add in the appropriate data. Since the "Notes" column will no longer be needed, I'll change that column to "Trap Weaknesses" and, for now, only put in notes for mice that are known to have "trap preferences" (to coin a phrase)… whether or not we add that data for every mouse should still be open for discussion.

--GoBecky 12:10, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

From what I gather, if a trap type is not listed, it's guaranteed that mice in that group will resist that power type. Most mice in the group share weaknesses. Just check mouse pages with different trap types and see if it says Impossible or a different word. Impossible is the new Over-awing.

On a related note, Balack is weak to Arcane, and Shadow, but especially weak to Forgotten. Other power types are useless though. Draobyek 12:28, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I think though, the Effectiveness page is where the weaknesses should go, but that page needs a massive overhaul. Last I checked, a lot of mice were missing. Draobyek 12:32, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Changing Power type to Mouse Group is a needed update. But I'm strongly against the idea of listing trap weaknesses in this overall article. This sort of information cannot be just given without detailed explanations. For instance, Forest Guild is weak to Physical and Tactical, but they are weaker to Tactical than they are to Physical (at least I think, if it still works the same way it was). There's no place to explain all the details on here. This is similar to my concerns bout listing them in the sideboxes on the individual mice pages, but at least there it's possible to explain the details in the main body. Before we go ahead with this idea, we need a lot more research about the weaknesses. Right now there is no way to determine which is the most effective, because there are no "less/more effective" notes in the journal. When that feature is replaced with something else; then we can updated the Effectiveness and go from there. -- camomiletea 16:07, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Power Types should be split into 2 articles now. One of them would be the trap Power Types, which should remain within this article as that is how they are identified in-game. Mice on the other hand, should probably get their own Mice/Mouse Group article, which will list down the Mice Groups as well as their weaknesses as listed on the Mice page. Enough information seems to have been given through the in-game text to make the basic outline. As for differences between each power type, which is not currently clear, a note can probably be added to mention so, as well as probably mentioning the old effectiveness data we currently still have. Effectiveness article itself might have to go, or be merged with a more relevant article now, depending on how the game design progresses from here on. -- Grexx 17:57, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Way ahead of you... ;) Mouse Group has already been created, although it might be tweaked. -- 18:15, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Gauntlet Stuff, and Mice in General

Originally started at User talk:Camomiletea/Sandbox#Gauntlet Stuff, and Mice in General

I don't know if it's something we should do now or wait till the whole Gauntlet has been released, but I think we should do some sub-categorization of the Gauntlet mice, especially since it appears that the different levels will have different power weaknesses, etc. (Actually, this is related to an idea I had that would allow us to do away with that monstrous an inefficient table of mice at Cheat Sheet: create subcategories for each location, and then, just by linking to the overall category page, it'll be a snap to see where each mouse can be found — not to mention the locations will be listed at the bottom of the mouse's page, as categories, although that could be suppressed.) Anyway, I think we should have a category for each tier — "King's Gauntlet Tier 1 Mice," etc — and either make those subcats directly under Category:Valour Mice, or create an intermediate category just called "King's Gauntlet Mice" and put that under Valor. (The late approach seems sensible only if a new region is added to Valor; for now, Valor = KG.)

So the category structure would look like:

Mice
- Valor Mice
- - KG T1 Mice
- - KG Tier 2 Mice
- - etc
- Gnawnia Mice
- - ToG
- - Meadow
- - etc

And so forth. What do you think? Id be happy to take this on — it tickles my inner OCD — but not sure where to propose it, so thought I'd bring it to you. --GoBecky 15:01, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

My initial thoughts is that having subcategories for Gauntlet mice might be nice. Not sure about having the subcategories for each location; it seems like some mice would have just tens of subcategories in that case, e.g. Black Widow. And I'm pretty sure that B.Rossow who created the mice table on the Cheat Sheet will protest if we try to get rid of it ;) -- camomiletea 04:35, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Doh! That dastardly Black Widow, mucking up my plans… /grin. I definitely see what you mean… that article is already rather cluttered with just the regional categories. Hm… I still think there's something to be done there, though, in terms of better using categories, if not in place of charts, at least to supplement them.

Right now when a new mouse is released, it has to be entered in at least 5 places: Mice, Cheat Sheet#Mice, Effectiveness, the location article (like Meadow#Meadow Mice, and finally the individual mouse article. It just seems to me that there might be a more streamlined way of doing this, especially since Longtail promises more frequent updates with more and more mice.

As far as categorizing the Tiers, the alternative — and perhaps better — solution would be to subdivide the King's Gauntlet article (well, a section of it) and create redirects, so that the individual mouse articles could list the locations as "King's Gauntlet Tier 1" and then have that point to a section of the article that would list mice, the "theme," trap weaknesses, etc. --GoBecky 12:42, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Tiny Mouse

When MouseHunt times out, it shows this picture and text:

The Tiny Mouse's little legs were too slow to fetch your data.

Your profile data timed out while loading.

Please wait a few seconds before reloading the page.

The mouse isn't available for catching (yet?), but I wonder if an article about it would still be good. In the text Tiny Mouse is capitalized like the names of mice that can be caught. -- camomiletea 21:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking about this the other day but decided to wait. I know the devs mentioned a new area (the Windmill, or something like that) with some new mice for the two ranks they're working on, and I'm guessing that the Tiny Mouse might be one of them. It's obviously too early to know anything for sure, but if you wanted to work on an article for it I don't really see a problem with that. I know we had an article on Balack before he was actually released (before we even knew for sure that he was a mouse, in fact), so I don't see where this would be much different. —MearsMan ^talk 21:18, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Balack is a bad precedent; I for one felt that article was created too early. I've decided to hold off on Tiny Mouse. -- camomiletea 18:08, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Giant Snail, Ravenous Zombie, Mummy, Ghost, Vampire & Lycan Not Attracted to Ancient in Moz

The pages for these mice say that they are "especially attracted to Ancient", however these mice CANNOT be attracted with Ancient in the moz. I find this quite misleading and suggest that it be updated to something like: "X mice have been found to be especially attracted to Ancient and Radioactive Blue cheese. However, they cannot be attracted by Ancient in the Mousoleum". I think this will help clear up some confusion, as it would improve on the accuracy of the pages. Thoughts? kiwimousehunter 20:39, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

The Devs must have changed the attraction for these mice since the launch of MHv3... Except for the Vampire all the mentioned mice are not attracted to Ancient in the Catz either. ____m. 20:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)