Talk:Location Quick Reference

Editing Notes

Some general guidelines to follow when adding additional information to any of the locations:

• Must be brief, without losing meaning.
• Each section should be self contained. The only link players need to follow is contained within the section and do not lead to other sections.
• It is ok to repeat what is mentioned in another section as long as it makes sense for the section in question.
• Do not include any time limited traps/mice in the write-up. They are not readily available and would very likely end up confusing newer players.
• Do not include SUPER|brie+ as recommended cheese, although it can be suggested for a particular mouse catch, like Cook or Worker.
• For crafted items, do not list down individual ingredients or additional notes. List only the final product. Further details should be easily available in the respective articles.

-- Grexx 16:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Some additional guidelines with the introduction of many more locations and branches in the paths that players can take:

• New locations should first be placed within the respective rank sections, and then in alphabetical order of location.
• If a cheese/trap combination is specific to catch 1 to 3 breeds of mice out of the many others in a location, it should not be put under recommended traps or recommended cheese, but should instead be included in the recommended to-do list. An example would be catching Monsters in the Laboratory. Catching Monsters there require the specific use of Radioactive Blue, along with a good physical trap. But using Radioactive Blue results in poor or negative gold returns in the Laboratory, so not exactly a good choice unless the player is aiming for a heavy Monster. Hence RB is not recorded as recommended cheese, but can be included as the writeup under the To-Do list as "Catch a Monster Mouse using Radioactive Blue."

-- Grexx 16:39, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Whisker Woods

Seeing as it is a very new area (and I haven't been there yet) I have no idea how difficult it is. Should it go under the "for new players" or the "for experienced players" section? It is a journeyman location. As soon as I get there, I will attempt to evaluate it and check back here.--Rvanarsdale 03:01, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, Mountain is another Journeyman location and it's in the newbie section, so I would put it there just on that basis. But I still have no map... -- Camomiletea 03:16, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

It is probably going to be a mixture of both newbie and veteran areas, since the design style so far has been 1 region, 4 locations. We will have to wait and see to be sure of course. As a tentative guideline, locations that can be accessed by Masters and above will be classed as for experienced players. Afterall, they are Masters :) -- Grexx 11:24, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Okay. My opinion is that we put it in as a noob section for now and modify as it goes - any last words before we do?--Rvanarsdale 12:41, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

About the "Recommended trap for the CC. Once the Venus Mouse Trap is released, will that become the new recommended trap? Or will it be recommended (or minimum) for the soon to be released new area (assumption that there is a new area, of course)? --Shinnok 07:20, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about that at the moment. We don't know how the locations and traps will play out exactly :) If for example, the trap is not sold in Calm Clearing, and there is little reason for players to return here, then it would not make sense to recommend it, just like why we don't recommend the Mouse DeathBot to players in the Town of Gnawnia etc. So we'll cross the bridge when it comes. -- Grexx 07:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Woah. It's been pretty chaotic here while I was asleep. On topic, I agree with Grexx. Moreover, I think that when the bunch of new Tactical mice are released, they probably wouldn't be in the Calm Clearing. The devs are probably setting up a new location similar to the Training Grounds or Dojo where Tactical mice can be found most, hence the new Venus Mouse Trap. For now, I think that the Calm Clearing has a lot of mice varieties already and wouldn't be that suitable for any more mice to be added. Again, this is purely speculation. --Mikeyco 07:37, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Recommended Cheese

Isn't "recommended cheese" a bit limiting? How about two or more categories... there are several locations where there are at least 3 cheese types that will give acceptable results but there are very significant differences between their performance... I appreciate we don't want a lot of complexity on what is supposed to be a quick reference chart, but how about something like Good, Better and Best cheese? -- Winelight 21:59, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that's going to be rather subjective... On which basis do we decide the best cheese (e.g. cost-effectiveness, attraction rate, encounter rate of certain mice, etc.)? We should let the players figure out what cheese is the best for them. -- Camomiletea 22:09, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

It would be difficult as Camomiletea mentioned, since for a location like the Dojo, whether Maki is "better" than standard cheese is somewhat questionable. And SUPER|brie+ is always better in most places, but due to it's high market value, is it really better in the end? (ie using SB+ in any of the locations in Gnawnia means losing 700-800 gold a hunt at a market rate of 1000 gold per SB+)

The only location I can think of where this could possibly work is in Bristle Woods, but even then there's difficulty in deciding which exactly is the better cheese. For example in Catacombs, you can use either Radioactive Blue or Ancient. For a new player who has slowly worked their way here, Ancient would be a more attractive choice since they should have tons of Stale Cheese by now. For others, it might be more cost effective to farm for RB potions and Stale Cheese at the same time in the Lab, so RB is the better cheese for them.

One way around this is to write an article by itself discussing the complexities of using different types of cheese in each location. If someone wants to give it a try, go ahead. Please use a sandbox though before thinking of integrating into the quick reference. We could have something like a Cheese Quick Reference List :) It will not be an easy task, but still doable. Remember the golden rule, keep it simple! -- Grexx 01:31, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Agree it would be subjective, but so too is "recommended cheese". The Cheese Quick Reference List sounds like a better idea. --Winelight 16:38, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Well they are the cheese that players normally use, hence the recommendation. We're taking the middle ground here mostly, not easy to balance everything out perfectly in a concise article like this :)

Oh and before I forget, for anyone planning to take up the task of the cheese reference list, the individual location articles are a good place to start with the writeup on what cheese to use. They are currently lacking in that department. The Hunting Strategy sections had been added precisely for that. The bait preference was intentionally left out of the mice tables because it would have been an inadequate explanation of the intricacies of cheese usage. It can then be compiled and summarized into a Cheese Reference List of sorts. This would certainly make the task more manageable. -- Grexx 17:53, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

"Best cheese" also depends on goals and... level of aggression in playing is perhaps the best way to put it. Consider the Dojo, and imagine these players:

• Adam just ranked up to grandmaster, and spent almost all his gold on the ZLM trap. He likely want to save gold for other parts of the game, and will probably go to the Dojo with Brie - or perhaps even Swiss. For that matter, if Adam has RB cheese left over from his time as a Master, he might stay in the Mos until it's gone to collect the better gold rewards, even at the expense of leveling up more slowly.
• Betty can afford to donate to MH for all the sb+ she could possibly desire. One of her major life obsessions is to climb the points scoreboard. Betty wants to spend the minimum possible time as a grandmaster and get into Bristle Woods where the point rewards are better. She would certainly use sb+ in the dojo - knowing that she's actually losing gold versus selling the cheese and not playing at all. She doesn't particularly care about that though - she wants those points!
• Chuck is a knight hunter who through poor luck, spending time in inefficient areas, or just not having played recently is still missing the Onyx Stone. Having spent months on the Moz, he has 4 million gold. Chuck knows he needs an onyx stone to make the acro trap, and that he can't play effectively at high levels without that trap. He's going to use maki - sure it will cost gold, but statistically it will get that mojo sooner.
• Danielle is a GM hunter, but she either got her onyx stone or doesn't care. She wants to unlock the Monster, Nibbler, Mole and a few others that she missed. She's probably not going to be in the dojo at all. -- Pakaran 18:23, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Pakaran you have given an excellent suggestion for the different categories of cheese usage. They shall tentatively be named the gold diggers, the scoreboard climbers, the Dev's hate you! aka DHY!, and the shadow fillers. FYI the cheese stalers generally fall between both the gold diggers and the scoreboard climbers :D Any more categories would be welcome. But there's a start for those interested in doing up the Cheese Reference List. -- Grexx 17:27, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I removed "ancient" from recommended cheese for the acolyte realm. You really don't want to be hunting with ancient in the AR - you only catch gate guardians. A completely pointless waste. --Winelight 21:52, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I suggest removing Superbrie as the recommended cheese for S.S. Huntington and the areas in the Tribal Isles. Superbrie can as well be listed as recommended in most other areas, and this is mentioned in its description. Artyom 00:07, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

That makes a lot of sense. We don't mention limited edition traps because not everyone has them and if they do they usually don't need encouragement to use them. I think that's similar to SB+ - not everyone can afford it, and if they do they probably know when to use it. -- Camomiletea 00:22, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Cheese Ranking Chart

Tossing some stuff out to see if anyone picks it up. Using 1 as the "best" cheese for a category:

Cheese Ranking for Town of Gnawnia

This is a rough guideline on which cheese is best suited for a particular category. It is further affected by your trap availability and choices, but holds true in most cases. 1 represents the best choice.

Cheese	Profits	Points	Staling	Rare Mice
Cheddar	2	5	1	5
Marble	1	4	2	4
Swiss	3	3	3	3
Brie	4	2	4	2
SUPER|brie+	5	1	-	1

This table can probably be further improved, for example adding a writeup on the reasoning for the "best" cheese in each category, and changes will be needed depending on location and the number of cheese in use, but I think this will help get things moving on the Cheese Ranking Chart. -- Grexx 17:09, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Bazaar

Shouldn't "Repairing the Tattered Mousoleum Map" be under "Things you MUST do"? It seems pretty clear that you cant advance in the game without that. --Shinnok 06:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

When you first reach Bazaar, you don't have to repair both maps, and it would be very costly. Perhaps, it can be moved to things you must do with a note "once you are at or close to Legendary rank". Feel free to make the change. Camomiletea 15:00, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Furoma

Overall, I think this new page is absolutely brilliant. One thing that I found a little odd as a newbie was in the Furoma locations, where the "recommended trap" for the Training Grounds, Dojo, and Meditation Room is listed as Ambush. While I agree that this trap is more effective than Zugzwang, AFAIK it can't actually be crafted until you've caught the appropriate mice in the Meditation Room. It seems strange to be recommending the use of a trap that can't actually be crafted until you've passed that stage of the game ... is it just me? (Noted, this is from the POV of someone who is just starting out at the TG now, so I've not actually lived through this part of the game yet.)--Gemelli 23:29, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you are right about the Training Grounds section (that may need to be changed to say just "Any Tactical Trap"), but usually you would go back to Dojo/Meditation Room again after you've crafted Ambush, so that you can get more tokens/shards for crafting Rumble and going after the Master of the Dojo in the Pinnacle Room. Camomiletea 23:40, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I think it's alright to leave it in there since some players do return for the Nibbler and Monk mice. Putting "any tactical trap" won't make much of a difference since there's only 2 traps available to players and we've listed them both :P Not counting special edition Snow Barrage of course. The Furoma region is somewhat special in that players are frequently expected to travel between all 4 locations, Training Grounds for supplies, Dojo for tokens, Meditation Room for shards, and Pinnacle for stones. Which also explains the very low travel costs of 25 to 750 gold. -- Grexx 03:56, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Catacombs

There is evidence that a Portal trap works in Catacombs [1] (the poster caught Spiders, Scavengers, Oozes, Keeper's Assistants and Skeletons in addition to some of the mice available in Moz), so I adjusted the minimum trap requirement. -- Camomiletea 23:20, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Dehydration Base

I just noticed that a little while ago a suggestion to "Craft a Dehydration Base" has been added for the Mountain (and was now also added to Calm Clearing). Should it be there, considering that at Journeyman rank crafting that base can fail? -- Camomiletea 03:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

There should probably be some change made to at least ensure it's clear the crafting could fail if you're a journeyman. What to change it too I'm not sure. DaRkAgE7_[Talk] 04:31, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

It is somewhat redundant since players have already been told to buy the ingredients for the Base in the Harbour. But if it is left as is, there is no need to make any additional notes about the possibility of failure since they would have almost certainly read about the warning in the Dehydration Base info page. Keep this page about locations, don't delve too much into crafting details :) -- Grexx 16:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Additional Travel Requirements?

As a player, I keep finding myself having to switch from this page over to Locations as I plan ahead, because Locations lists the "additional travel requirements" (maps, keys, etc). What do you all think of duplicating that information here?

It could (and probably will) be argued that it's unnecessary because the player has already been told to collect or repair whatever maps are needed; but IMO, it would be extremely helpful to be able to glance at an area that you haven't been to yet and know what you'll need to get there, without going hunting for that information. Particularly in situations like the Catacombs: it's recommended that the player repair the map while in the Bazaar, but since most won't be able to on their first trip (as the player has to be Legendary to do the repair), that step could easily be forgotten about.

So, I think having a "Travel Requirements" row would be appropriate and helpful. See below for an example. Thoughts? I'd be more than happy to do the actual editing, if it's agreed upon by the community. --GoBecky 14:43, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

EXAMPLE: Calm Clearing (Minimum Rank: Journeyman)

---

Recommended Ranks	Journeyman and above
Travel Requirements	Whisker Woods Clearing Map Piece
Recommended Cheese	Marble or Swiss
Minimum Traps	1) Swiss Army Mouse Trap ▪ paired with Stone Base
Recommended Traps	1) NVMRC Forcefield 2) Mouse DeathBot ▪ paired with Explosive Base or Dehydration Base
Things you must do	▪ Catch a Cyclops Mouse with a Gnarled Tree Map Piece AND ▪ Reach Master rank to access the Great Gnarled Tree
Recommended To-do List	▪ Collect Splintered Wood dropped by Treant mice

---

Sounds like a good idea. Making the quick reference a quick reference is the goal after all. Would need to reconsider the role of the Locations page though, as it currently is not really useful in any sense except as a redirection page. Appreciate additional comments. -- Grexx 13:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Average income / points per location

Any possibility of adding average income of points & gold into the location quick reference? It would be a good way to compare locations if the aim is to collect the goods. Naturally the easiest way of calculating this is by pure average and giving it out as a single value. Another way would be to take in to account the averages per trap, that is as a low to high value. Low being the average income with the least effective trap and high with the most effective trap. The alternative is to put the data to the trap setup -options, but the location quick reference would make it easier to compare between locations. --skks 11:25, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Lagoon

A special note is in order regarding the Lagoon. For those who are trying to catch rare shadow mice, for example to collect pictures, it is reasonable to use the BG and ACRoNYM traps. However, these traps are ineffective against tactical mice (which are a significant proportion of those in the area). In the case of the BG, it also has very low power, so it is ineffective against the Hydra Mouse, which is one of the major goals (perhaps the major goal) of being in the Lagoon in the first place. I think we need to be careful about suggesting these (or any shadow and arcane traps) for general use in the Lagoon. -- Pakaran 03:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Section Titles

The list of locations is getting longer and is making the search for a particular location somewhat harder than it should be due to the inclusion of the rank requirement. Planning on doing minor revamp of the way the experienced hunter sections are laid out by dividing based on rank, namely Master, Grandmaster, Legendary, and Hero and above, removing the rank requirement from the title. Rank requirement in the location title will be retained for the newcomers section. Thus 'Laboratory (Minimum Rank: Master)' will become 'Laboratory' under the section header 'Minimum Rank: Master' or similar. Comments/violent objections? --Grexx 17:25, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I second this notion! Go for it!! _____m. 22:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Alphabetical ordering of locations

Path information should not be implied in the ordering of the locations simply because there is no fixed order of progression with the various paths the developers have added, hence the list will be properly alphabetized within each rank section, once again. By ordering the locations in a certain way, one would just be trying to push personal views of game progression onto other players. Progression information should be contained within the specific location sections instead. As for those wishing to undo previous changes, I, and other editors kindly ask that proper justifications be given. Empty comments, as well as consecutive minor edits, show a lack of thought into each edit, as well as making it much harder for history checks. -- Grexx 17:19, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

• In some cases, certain locations are perquisites to other locations (an example being the SSH2 and Derr Dunes). Since the link to Location Quick Reference on the main page says "Walkthrough," it seems (at first) to be absurd to list Derr Dunes before the SSH2. But then when I thought about it some more, it seemed more okay. It's still a brief walkthrough of sorts for each location individually (even if not perfectly tied together), so the name still fits, and hunters would only need to look up what to do in their current location (which has to be one they can travel to), so if Derr Dunes wasn't available to them yet, they'd know to skip over it and come back later when they meet the prerequisite. Alphabetical ordering is also less controversial. No one can argue it's alphabetized one way while another argues it's alphabetized another way... unless the devs start making similarly-named areas with very strange ASCII characters, but I'm rather certain that won't happen. :) --Dreamwalker 19:07, 12 August 2009 (UTC)