Talk:Cheat Sheet

Layout

This is a good summary! Tossing out some additional ideas that could be workable for the Mice table:

• Locations listed according to order they were introduced rather than alphabetical, ie Town of Gnawnia, Meadow, Harbour, Mountain
• Rather than an X marks the spot, shading the boxes would stand out more and be easier to view.
• Removing region names altogether since most players should be familiar by now
• Removing region names allows sorting, although I'm not sure how the long rows will fare. If shading, can consider splitting long rows back into individual cells.
• Shortening some of the names like Ronza's Travelling Shoppe -> Ronza's
• Using acronyms/nicknames for locations/mice to reduce width, ie Ab. Snow, Master - Dojo, Rav. Zombie etc.

-- Grexx 03:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

It's just a start (that took much of the afternoon and evening, off and on at least) and still has a way to go. My thoughts about your thoughts:

• I had considered shading the "X" boxes and held off, wanting instead to get the page at least useable if not perfect and available for public use. My biggest concern about the shading for individual boxes is the amount of code it will add to the page, which is why I didn't do it right away. Just threw something up and it adds about 4K to the page, which isn't as big a deal as I thought it might be. The overhead doesn't concern me as much as how very easy it would be for an inexperienced editor to mess it up. With the Mice table in particular, that's a BIG table and it was a bear just to get the Xs in the right spaces. I can only imagine the horror of a new editor looking at the code and trying to make sense of it now that shading has been added. LOL! At any rate, it's in place now, but feel free to revert or change it.

• In case you were suggesting shading instead of Xs ... I think we need to keep the Xs because many people's web browsers don't print background colors if someone (like me, for example) wanted to print the page; they'd simply end up with a blank table.

• I initially had the table without the regions, but I really think we need to keep them. Without them, all the locations run together even worse than they do now. As far as sorting goes, I believe each location has a list of mice, traps, etc. already on the page so if people want to see everything in the Town of Digby, for example, they can just go to that page. My vision for this page was not "what is in each location?" (which is already covered elsewhere) but rather "where can I find X item/mouse/etc.?". The alphabetical lists (IMHO) present the most logical order possible for finding "stuff" — mice, traps, etc. It's for this reason (and because of the extra space that the sorting symbol takes up in the headers) that I decided against making the tables sortable. Maybe I'm wrong, but I see it as a slippery slope — if we make the tables sortable, then maybe it wouldn't hurt to add in some pricing info, etc. I really see this as a no-frills, bare-bones page. Since I've made it a public wiki page and taken it out of my Sandbox, however, I realize that my vision may be lost. Such is life on a wiki....

• For all of the long location names like Ronza's, I intentionally did not use the "nowrap" code so that the tables would adjust to varying screen widths. (Believe me, after the Traps debacle, I'm more acutely aware of that than ever, and I've been doing and teaching web design for 15+ years.) I've resized my browser window to countless sizes and I have ensured that the table will print on a standard sheet of paper without bleeding off the right margin or having to be reduced — no mean feat with all that info! The one place I did do some abbreviating was with the mice names — dropped "Mouse" from all of them and shortened up the Students and Masters names. Didn't want to do it but didn't want the line wrapping, either. So I compromised. Because it will all print in a single page width and fit in a reasonably small browser window without scrolling sideways, I don't see a need to further shorten any names ... but I won't jump off a bridge if you do. ;-)

So having said all of that, I'm open to suggestions. Just can't say enough how disappointed I'd be to see this move away from a no-nonsense, no-frills "cheat sheet" of sorts.-- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 04:29, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I saw the shading code. I'd say most editors will stay far away from it ;) Leaving the X in along with the colours looks good too. Its so much easier to see with shading. I'd still prefer to have the locations in introduction order since that's how I personally look at the table and most of the wiki. But just seeing the code adjustment needed. Suffice to say its good enough as is. ;)

Regarding shortening of names on any of the tables on this page, I think its reasonable to assume that players visiting this page are familiar with that aspect of the game to want to look at it in summary. Anyways the links have been included, and they could easily read up on the info if they so wanted. Also, we can reasonably expect 2 to 4 more locations within the next month or so, if the previous region design is followed. Thus we're going to have to squeeze in more columns. Which is why I'd prefer things like Ronza's Travelling Shoppe shortened to Ronza's, or even Ronza, since "Travelling" does take up more space even while it is auto-wrapped in smaller display sizes.

Anyways all in all this page is a really good idea. -- Grexx 10:01, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not married to the location order at all; I don't envy the editor who decides to change it but won't object if someone does. As for the shortened names ... maybe just deal with it if/when it proves to be an issue? At present it's fine on the 15" CRT (grrrr!!) I'm stuck with here at work — no horizontal scrolling and prints nicely. But I'm not going to throw a fit if it gets changed as long as the locations are still easily identifiable. -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 15:26, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I just shortened some of the longer mouse names and reduced my screen resolution to 1024x768. With the shortened names alone, the table just fits on the screen without horizontal scrolling (though it really did come down to a few pixels). (Screenshot here.) If/when more areas are added, we may have to get very creative with how we list the location names, perhaps using a vertical format like this:

F u r o m a

With the current table structure, I don't see any way around cramming for space when more areas are added. If I had access to the raw server logs for the wiki, I could probably tell you what the minimum screen resolution used to view the page is and we could design accordingly, but that's not only never going to happen but would be extreme overkill even if it were possible. As much as I resist the idea on "normal" pages, it could be that this is one page where we simply acknowledge that vertical scrolling is going to happen. The only reasonable alternative I see is rotating the table 90° with mice at the top and locations in rows instead. Doing that, we could make multiple tables, each with (for example) 15 mice. In the extreme, we could just shrink font size even more, but that's not a good solution. But hey, on the bright side the page is only 12 hours old and already has more than 3,300 hits. Must be doing something right. :-) -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 15:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I've seen some of the creative solutions that are used in wikipedia here. Unfortunately we don't have the image upload capability open on the wiki. I think we'll probably have to resort to shortening names even more. Afterall, there are some more locations we can squeeze width out of like Ronza's, Med. Rm., TG, Lab, Moz etc :p

And I've been watching the view count. Its great :) The page has filled the void for a quick reference list. -- Grexx 16:09, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Lack of image upload is crippling us in a number of ways, but so be it. Here's a tweak to my above code that might prove useful in combination with shortened names:

F u r o m a

A lot of underlying code, but if the goal is easy reference more than easy editing, might be worth considering. -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 16:45, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

See if you dig this: Vertical text - VERY tight. Might be useful when more areas are added. -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 17:01, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

That looks better than the current table actually! Possibly a bit hard to read for some. Editing wise, since its a one-time edit it should be fine. I think we can seriously consider the vertical layout when the time comes along and we still don't have access to image uploads.

On a side note, have you seen the page using Internet Explorer? I just realized its missing the border around the blank boxes in IE6 as compared to a nicely bordered table in Firefox 3.0.6. Image Comparison -- Grexx 18:30, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Leave it to Microsoft. *groan* Just fixed it with my first guess! Added "border-collapse:collapse;" to the style tag for each table. IE users are darn lucky I made a lucky guess, though, because otherwise I could have let it go indefinitely. Man, I hate MS! LOL! -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 18:51, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Prize Mice Locations

There is no evidence that suggests prize mice are in all locations. Currently there is none that shows they exist in the Meditation Room and Pinnacle Chamber. The notion that these mice are in all locations was said before these areas were created. --Mase123y 11:53, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The cheat sheet doesn't contain any new information. It just aggregates basic information available from the wiki into a single page. So this is probably not the best place to discuss this. --Grexx 14:20, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I've asked for developer input on this issue as they are ultimately the only ones who can answer. Let's be patient and await a reply. In the meantime, I doubt many people will be hanging out in the MR or PC waiting for a prize mouse based on the info here. -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 15:38, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Generally prize mice are released on all "standard" hunting locations, which exclude places where there are extremely specific mice such as the meditation room and pinnacle chamber. --Dave Vanderburg 01:33, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Dave! Does the same hold true for "special event" mice like the Cupid, Elf, etc.? -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 01:36, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and as future "specialized boss-mice" areas are added the same will hold true for them --Dave Vanderburg 02:27, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

On the Elf and Hollowhead. They were before the Catacombs. Wont it be misleading to say that they could be found there? I think we should remove the respective markers and/or add a note. Thoughts? Shinnok 08:29, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

No more misleading than to say they can be found anywhere, since they're not currently in-game. Let's not worry about it until Halloween at the earliest. :-) -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 13:37, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Breaking up the page

Just wondering if we should break it up into sub-pages like Cheat Sheet/Mice, Cheat Sheet/Cheese, Cheat Sheet/Traps, Cheat Sheet/Crafting Supplies. Mainly to make it more readable and reduce the amount of information presented since players will usually be looking at a certain portion of the page. Would make it better for linking from the various related pages too. Thoughts?

Regarding the '/' separator, not very sure if that's recommended for non-user wiki pages. If not could probably use something like a '-' instead, like Cheat Sheet - Mice. -- Grexx 15:33, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

As the creator of the page, I'm very much against this idea. VERY much. The entire purpose (as I envisioned it originally and still do) was to provide ALL of the info in one place. If we split it out, we might as well get rid of it entirely, since it's just a condensed version of info found elsewhere — people can just go to those individual pages instead. I can't adequately express how much I'm against this. -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 15:46, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Makes sense. We'll leave it as an all-in-one reference page as per the original intention. -- Grexx 15:58, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Supplies Table

Please ignore or correct me if I'm completely mistaken but since this page is for quick reference wouldn't it make sense to put in the prices instead of the "X" for Curds'n'Whey as well as Salt because those are sold in every store with different prices? _____m. 22:22, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

That's detailed info that can be found elsewhere. This page is simply "where is it" -- one more click will get them to prices. The goal is to provide basic info only and keep the tables as minimal as possible without duplicating exactly a table found elsewhere, which is what you're suggesting. -- B.Rossow ^talk_contr 22:26, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Mice Table

If no one else is editing the table, I will organize the internal layout so that it'll be easier to edit. Mainly involves splitting the cell headers into 4 rows so that it'll be a bit more obvious which row is for which region. -- Grexx 14:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I've got a work-in-progress for the Mice Table saved in here. --Mikeyco 14:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm almost done updating. Only 1 more mouse to add. Shall I save it or pass over what i've done?--Amyarlp 14:56, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Try saving it somewhere else beforehand. On your user page perhaps, so that other people can preview it. Mine is pretty much up-to-date already, although I'm still looking for suggestions. I tried gathering information from the profiles of Hunters already inside the Forbidden Grove or the Acolyte Realms. --Mikeyco 15:00, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

If it's basically the same thing, Mikeyco's table should be good enough as long as no information is missing. -- Grexx 15:01, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I've got no more to add, so i'll leave it too you --Amyarlp 15:07, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Let me know when you are done so that I can start organizing the insides of the table to ease the difficulty of editing the section in future. -- Grexx 15:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm done. It should be accurate as of this moment. --Mikeyco 15:16, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok I'll start working on it. For anyone else intending to make edits, don't do any until I'm done to avoid wasting time. -- Grexx 15:19, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Ah. Now I see what you meant by organizing the insides of the table. You're dividing the line into multiple lines corresponding to each region. --Mikeyco 15:45, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Yup that'll make future edits easier than at the moment, which requires way too much column counting and thus prone to mistakes. -- Grexx 15:52, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Done organizing and cleaning up. Should be much easier to work on now. -- Grexx 16:36, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your hard work. I didn't know you can split those tables into multiple lines since it's my first time editing in a Wiki and I haven't read everything I need to know yet. I'm also currently updating the other version I'm keeping in my page to match your latest update except with vertical headers. --Mikeyco 16:52, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Yup a wiki is as flexible as a normal table, where you can have the <td> tags on separate lines. The easiest way to learn is to click on the edit button and mess around with the code and look at the preview.

As for the table on your user page, might I suggest just working on the table headers with just 1 or 2 mouse filler lines in between, since that's the most important part of the table. That will cut down on the size and remove unnecessary distractions. You can make additions to the table directly.

Also, if you're adding to this page, do try to keep the actual mouse articles updated as well, and probably the location article too. That way everything will stay consistent :) -- Grexx 17:03, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm trying to, but sometimes the problem I had with editing comes back. I just reload the page several times until it finally lets me edit them. Also, regarding the tables in my page, I'm removing the old one since it's redundant. I'll only be keeping the one with vertical headers. I might try out your suggestion to reduce the size of the table. It's still a work-in-progress anyway. --Mikeyco 17:25, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

New Mice Table Layout

The table is now internally organized such that each mouse is divided into 8 parts:

• Mouse Description
• Gnawnia region
• Burroughs region
• Furoma region
• Bristle Woods region
• Rodentia region
• Tribal Isles region
• Other regions

Additionally, the color codes for the Prize and Event mice have been flipped to cut down on the code. Cells are now by default shaded blue. Visually there is no change in the table at all. -- Grexx 16:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Added the new regions above. -- Camomiletea 20:37, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

With the addition of more mice, the mice list is now long enough to warrant additional location segments such that no mouse is without the location header either above or below. Please keep reorganization along alphabetical lines. Have posted this up on MHWiki:Articles_needing_attention. -- Grexx 16:55, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Does it look good now, or do you think more is necessary? -- Camomiletea 02:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Cheese (crafted) Redundancy

The Yield column is enough to say the number of pieces crafted, but some of the information is repeated in the Product column. Shouldn't those be revised? Link here. --Mikeyco 09:44, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Add numbers to crafting/traps/cheese etc

I would like to see the tables for cheese, crafting, and trap availability also have a cost in them. This would show the same info as the current 'X', take up comparable room but have much more info. You could quickly compare the cost of items at each location, or get the numbers for the cost of a shopping trip for the next location.

As part of this, I would also include the refund value for different items at different locations.

All of this information exists in the wiki at the moment its just spread out all over the place.

I am prepared to do the edit, but want to get feedback on whether this would be seen as a useful change before I committed the time (expect it will take a few minutes!).

--Jason 00:29, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

If you look further up I had the same idea and then did it for myself here. Cheers _____m. 00:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

• Sorry, missed that when I was reading the other comments. That's exactly the type of thing that I was talking about. I disagree with Brent that this type of info shouldn't be here. This is a one-stop summary page and should include all info that doesn't confuse the reader. -- Jason 17:53, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

typo in arcane trap effectiveness? /cheat cheats

I just saw a possible typo, the arcane trap shows lessened effectiviness to all types of power? Is it ment to show increase of effectiveness towards arcane, but decrease to others? JHawx

You probably read it wrong: The left column shows the Power types of mice (not weapons) and all Weapons are less effective against Arcane mice (Acolyte being the only one) -- Hydro has to be confirmed yet. _____m. 12:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, that is weird, as the game texts say that arcane trap is more effective against shadow type of mice. (referring to hunting tips by larry, "Forgotten mice can be caught using a Shadow trap but you will find that an Arcane trap works even better.", thus it should state arcane trap is having more effectiveness to forgotten, shadow etch. (double checked, its correct). But arcane trap vs arcane mice is having less effect??? I just dont get how thats possible, true, acolytes are having low catch rate as they are so rare, you dont see em, thus having low catch rate... This however doesent confirm the "all traps are having lower rate towards arcane mouse"-statement... I´ll gonna need to have a proof via catch rate calculations by that 1 to belief it myself... If im not right about it, you can have my apologies around ^^JHawx

Well I don't know which Title you have atm or if you have been in the Realm already and have seen the Acolyte but here is what I get when he was visiting:

01:17 I sounded the Hunter's Horn, but my efforts were fruitless. An Acolyte mouse ate a piece of cheese without setting off my trap. My weapon was less effective against this mouse.

This was with Acronym/Aqua/Runic. Happy hunting and editing!! _____m. 10:13, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

In that quote, Larry does not say that Arcane is more effective against Shadow. He says that Arcane is better than Shadow against Forgotten. This makes sense because Shadow is of normal effectiveness against Forgotten, and Arcane is very effective against Forgotten; so Arcane is better than Shadow against Forgotten.

Acolyte is not a Forgotten type mouse. So it's not a matter of Arcane vs. Forgotten where it would have been more effective. Acolyte is as of now the only Arcane mouse. It has been confirmed for traps of all power types (except Hydro, with which I haven't seen any attempts to go against Acolyte) that they are less effective - including Arcane. He can be caught right now only through luck.

It's not really intuitive, since most traps of a certain power type are more effective against the corresponding mouse power type, but the devs threw in a curve ball here. Some people hypothesized that maybe we are going to get a 'Forgotten' type trap (there aren't any such right now) that would be effective against Arcane mice, a reversal of the Arcane trap vs. Forgotten mice situation. -- Camomiletea 17:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Havarti cheese section

IMO, it should be combined with the rest of the "Cheese (crafted)" section rather than put separately. Someone suggested to put the summary of Havarti only on Havarti disambiguation page, and I liked that idea. But here in the cheat sheet it doesn't make sense to break it off and leave the rest of the cheese types all together. Why do we not break off the special Furoma cheese? It should be all one table. At least here. -- Camomiletea 02:52, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I would like the tables to be combined as well, but with the table being laid out with all the ingedients along the top, the width of the table might be too big. We would have to add Coconut milk, Shell, Stones, Vegies and 7 types of peppers for the 3 island cheeses and the 7 pepper cheeses. this would take the ingredient count from 20 to 31 -- Precisa 03:45, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Jungle of Dread and Prize/Event mice

It seems to me that Jungle of Dread is similar to Meditation Room where there are only the sort of "boss" mice, and no Black Widows and other event/prize mice. Would you agree? I'd like to remove the shading from that area in the Mice table for the prize/event mice. Dracano by extension might be like Pinnacle Chamber, but we don't know yet. -- Camomiletea 19:37, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Colors in the tables

We need to cut down on the amount of cell colors on this page as it adds a lot of code to an already large article. Let's keep it simple(r) :) -- Grexx 12:42, 25 August 2009 (UTC)